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Balls Copyright © JPayne 1997

"If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm." -- Marcus Aurelius

I found this quote at: Freethought one of the pages at the Page of Honest Intellectual Inquiry.

"Real Americans must stand boldly against malicious organized hate directed at others whatever may be their race, sex, religion, ethnic background or sexual preference." Rev. John W. Watkins.

"The only people who think there's something wrong with escapism are jailers." -- C.S. Lewis

WOW!!! I'm FAMOUS!!! Lack of Knowledge has linked to this page! He says about me: "Here is a Q&A page on agnosticism that I think is worthy of your time." I'm worth TIME!!! 8)

Note:this page was not written all at once, sections have been added and will continue to be added for as long as I keep thinking of new stuff to add. Tone/sarcasm levels/outright pitbull murdering pissed-off attitude/sympathy and understanding will vary according to mood when piece is written.

Religiously speaking, I'm agnostic. This is not the same thing as being an athiest, despite what some people would like to believe. Here are some definitions of agnosticism and my responses to them:

From the Dictionary of Philosophical Terms and Names:

agnosticism Belief that human beings do not have sufficient evidence to warrant either the affirmation or the denial of a proposition. The term is used especially in reference to our lack of knowledge of the existence of god.

Response: This is the best definition of what exactly I believe, just expand god to refer to ALL gods/goddesses/etc as well as magic, psychic powers, UFOs, the New Age, Bigfoot, ghosts, fairies, elves, demons, angels, etc.

From The Ism Book A Field Guide to the Nomenclature of Philosophy:

Response: Other agnostics might have a "wait-and-see" attitude toward the existance of God, but I don't. More on that later on though. It is true that many believers don't or won't see the difference between agnosticism and atheism, which is also something I'll be talking about later....

From The Difference Dictionary:

Response: This definition is also pretty close to what I believe.

My thoughts on agnosticsm (some of these 'questions' are based on conversations I've had on-line):

1. Why are you agnostic?:

Quite franly, you've got me on that one. I'm not sure. As far as I can tell I've been agnostic nearly all my life. Fundamentalist Christians like to talk about a hypothetical savage who has never heard of the Christian God but who is still somehow aware of his existance and who will know God once a missionary comes along to convert him. Think of me as a savage who didn't know until about 10 years ago what an agnostic was, but who knew that's what she was when she heard about it.

2. Do you believe in God/a god/gods/goddesses/etc?:

Short answer: No.

Medium answer: It depends on what kind of day I'm having. Sometimes I'm more inclined to believe in a god than others. Don't get your hopes up though, usually these times are when something's gone wrong and I'm looking for someone to be mad at. Or at least someone to bitch at. Occassionally, I'll look around at this at times crazy old world and try to commisserate with God. I do tend to feel sorry for Him at times...

2b. Are you still searching? Is that why you haven't made a decision yet?

Even though there are those out there who'd rather not believe it, agnosticism is just as much a 'destination' as belief in a divine power. Or not believing in one. If you're thinking of writing me to tell me what a rotten fencesitter I am and how I should make a decision one way or the other and accept a divine being into my heart or reject the superstitious beliefs of my forefathers, please kindly don't. All such messages will be read, fumed over and deleted. and I'll block your email accounts. And call down the wrath of internet pixies upon you.

2c. Why're you being so sarcastic and mean?

Because right now, as I'm adding this, I am hungry and tired and have a headache and someone just told me that "agnostics are athiests who lack the strength of their convictions." I'm tired of hearing that. I'm tired of being told I'm ignorant because I:

1. Don't believe in a God.
2. Don't NOT believe in a God
3. Am skeptical about claims made by believers in a wide variety of things, including but not limited to: the divinity of Jesus Christ, the existance of magic, magick, majick or however the person wants to spell it, a variety of political ideas, the downfall of the United States Educational System. UFOs, psychic phemomena, any and all conspiracy theories, the evils of the male gender in general and white males in particular, and a whole lot more.

   Addendum: Just a brief word of warning to any theists or athiests out there: Do NOT call me a fence-sitter. Repeat: DO NOT CALL ME A FENCE-SITTER. Sure, it may seem like a cute little phrase and it sure does seem to describe agnosticism in general but DON'T USE IT, especially not around me. I don't like it, I find it an insulting term that implies agnostics are weak-minded cowards who can't make a decision. I made my decision, just like you did and it wasn't any easier than yours were so there's no need for name-calling.

You'll have to forgive me if I come across here as less than my usual open-minded self, but it gets old having to defend my beliefs from attack by all sides. I've come to realize that agnostics, in general, aren't really welcome by either side. Theists see us as athiests lacking conviction who can probably be converted if they give us just the right piece of evidence. And athiests see us as 'gutless' people who still have one foot in the 'god camp'.

And, to discuss my skepticism here for just a moment: I'd like to make it abundantly clear to the world in general that just because I may not believe in the same things you do it doesn't mean I automatically think you're crazy because of it. If you believe in anything I've listed on this page, FINE! I honestly could care less. I can probably even discuss it with you since I've been reading about strange phenomena since I was about ten years old and I have a great interest in them even if I don't always appear to show it.

Addendum: I don't want to come across as the Lone Agnostic Defending her beliefs from attack by the Cruel Forces of Belief/Non-Belief. I have met many people, religious and otherwise who've accepted me for who and what I am. They may be baffled by it, but they are at least willing to let me believe as I see fit. There's a word for those kind of people: Nice.

3. Wait a sec, if Agnostics believe god to be unknowable and you don't believe in god...how can you call yourself an agnostic?:

Flip, smart-assed answer: Simple, I open my mouth and form the air forced out of my lungs by muscular contraction into the sounds recognized by English-speaking ears as the word "agnostic".

Longer, more reasoned and hopefully more polite answer: I, for the most part, don't believe there is a God, any god, or goddess. Period. BUT, I can't prove it. Nobody can. So, since I can't say with total conviction there is no god, I don't feel I can reasonably call myself an atheist. At least not without knowing that I'm avoiding what is to me a simple fact: we can never know, one way or the other, if a divine presense of any sort exists. We can believe that we know, but there is no real proof for or against. (Any theist thinking to offer the old saw about the universe exists, so there must have been a creator since this all couldn't have come about by accident, save it. I've heard it before and it still sounds like a stupid argument to me. It will always sound like a stupid argument so don't even try giving it to me.) Addendum: GEEZE, who pissed on my cheerios that day? Seriously though, the argument from design isn't a very good one. Check out Refuting God from Dan Barker's Losing Faith in Faith for a much better argument against it than I could come up with.

And any atheists who have any equally smart-assed little proofs of the non-existance of God they'd like to try on me, I have this to say to you: Don't. Just back away slowly 'cause I don't want to hear it from you either. Like the philosophers of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I believe in rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty and this is one of 'em so lay off.

Addendum: Again, I have to wonder who's been going around messing up my breakfast cereal...still, the same reasoning as above holds true here: We believe in the existance or non-existance of God/s because of Faith rather than actual concrete proof. Saying "I can prove God exists/doesn't exist" doesn't mean much since all it really proves is that you've come up with an argument that convinces you. There are people in the opposite camp who've got arguments that are just as good.

4. What turned you against God/Jesus/Christianity?:

What makes you assume, oh invisible questioner who I made up so I could write this, that I turned against anything? As I said, I believe that I've been agnostic since early childhood, I just never had a name to stick to it. I flirted briefly with religious belief in my early-mid teens, but it never stuck.

Even now, I don't hate Christianity or any other religion as far as that goes. I'm disgusted with some of the arrogance, bigotry, deliberate ignorance and downright stupid half-assed behavior that is perpetrated behind the shield of religious faith sometimes, but I try my best not to hold that against any particular belief system. In other words, Pat Robertson's bigoted, braindead proclamations about Orlando, Florida being in danger of God's Wrath because Disney held Gay Days are not the fault of anybody but Mr. Robertson himself. True, his belief system tells him that homosexuality (*) is wrong, but he's a big boy now and is fully capable of coming up with thoughts on his own. Making a bigoted proclamation and calling it God's Will is a way of passing the buck.

(*) Ok, thanks to everybody who read that sentence that said "True, his [Pat Robertson's] beliefs tell him that Christianity is wrong, but he's a big boy now and is fully capable of coming up with thoughts on his own now." and DIDNT' TELL ME I SCREWED UP! 8P

5. Why do you hate God?:

Ok, non-existant questioner, you're not listening are you? I don't hate God. I tend to ignore God, if he exists, for the most part and sometimes I feel downright sorry for him and yes, sometimes I am pit-bull murdering pissed at some of his followers and I've even been mad at Him before, but I don't hate him. Having met some of his more...obnoxious...believers, I'm inclined to think that the Christian God and all other deities spend a lot of time pulling their hair and going "I DIDN'T SAY THAT!!! WILL YOU QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND LISTEN FOR ONCE??"

Basically, if I'm in a religious discussion with you and I seem angry, it's not your divine being I'm pissed at, it's probably you. If you require clarification, ask me.

6. Yeah, Christianity is messed up, I can understand not wanting to believe in it...Now Religion X on the other hand...that's real:

Maybe to you, bub, but not me. The way I see it, if I reject the existance of one God, splitting the divine essence into parts isn't going to make it any more real. I've talked to believers of several different religions and I've found that ignorance, bigotry, stupidity and assholier-than-thou attitudes exist among all of them. Nobody's perfect.

As far as it goes, I've also met some very nice folks within all these religious systems so it kind of balances out.

Addendum: 10/1/98 If you'll kindly look below to the addendum to part 7, you'll see that Assholier-than-thou isn't limited to theists by any stretch. For a longer example, read Madelyn Murry O'Hair's article on Agnostics in the Links section.

7. But Christianity (or religion in general) is the source of so much suffering in the world!:

Ah, non-existant one...I shall call you Chumley, you have apparently switched sides for my editorial convenience and I thank you for it. Christianity is not responsible for all the world's current ills. Christianity is barely 2000 years old and people have been being downright nasty and hateful to each other for a hell of a lot longer than that (unless you believe the world was created in 4004 BC in which case, get off my page...). Individual Christians who used their interpretations of their religious beliefs as an excuse to committ heinious deeds have managed to give their religion an not entirely undeserved bad rap. But why stop at Christians? All religions have had their bloodthirsty moments, even supposedly pacifistic ones like Buddism. Look at the Aztecs. Their religion said it was okay to conquer other people, bring them to the top of the temple and rip out their still beating hearts to feed the Sun God. How many millions did they kill? I'd be willing to bet at least as many, if not more, than European Christians did during the Inquisition.

Addendum: 10/1/98Okay, I just got done (figuratively) slogging through 10 miles of open, rancid sewer and I want to talk about it. I was on IRC talking with a...carbon based life form descended from an ape (I'm not gonna call him human...) who seems to believe that all theists need to die because of all the evils that religion has done throughout history. This sack of feces sees nothing wrong with his wanting to use violence against people who have done him NO harm in order to punish them for 'crimes' none of them have committed (well, ok, there are theists out there currently who have committed atrocities in the name of their religion but that doesn't mean this jackass has the right to sign a death-warrent for ALL theists). There's a word for this kind of thinking boys and girls: bigotry, pure and simple ignorant brain-dead head up the ass bigotry. Atheism is NOT a better system of belief than Theism. Not believing in a God does NOT give you free reign to go out an insult/harass/mock/annoy or exterminate those who do. Period. End of Story. There will be no discussion on this point; I will conceed no ground on this matter.

8. Then how come you have all these pagan links if you don't believe in any of it?

Because Chumley, I'm a fantasy writer and I've got them here for research purposes. I don't own my own machine and even if I did, I'd still want a web page. Having links to these sites makes them easier for me to find and I can provide them for other writers/believers/whoever wants to take a look. If you'll notice, I've also got a link to the WWW Bible Gateway, which happens to be my favorte biblical site since it allows you to search several bibles at once as well as do keyword searches.

9. Well then, what DO you believe in?

Finally! Ok, Chumley, here goes:

I believe in:

• The United States Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.
• The inalienable right of all men, women and children to live their own lives free from fear of reprisals from anybody else for any purpose so long as they don't cause unwanted harm to another person.
• I believe in the complete and total equality of the sexes and I do mean complete equality
• The complete and total equality of all races, even though race is an inaccurate term used to differentiate between skin colors.
• The complete and total equality of all religious backgrounds, including agnosticism. (God A isnt' any better than Goddess C who isn't any better than Non-Belief and so on).
• That just because I don't like something that doesn't mean someone else can't like it (e.g. cheeseburgers..eeww!).
• peanut butter.

Oh really? Well, I may not be a Biblical scholar but I know enough about interpreting texts and about history, literature and human nature to know that people can talk themselves into believing damn near anything.

Links:

Agnosticism:

Religious Recovery:

Losing Faith in FaithExcerpts from Dan Barker's book about his converstion from fundamentalist preacher to athiest. There is a link to chapter 17 of this book earlier in this page.
Walk Away For Ex-Fundamentalists Walk Away started as a newsletter and has become a web page. Walk Away was sponsored by the Institute for First Ammendment Studies but has since ceased publication, this page is being maintained and has several testimonials from ex-fundamentalist christians; very interesting reading. Also has other resources for ex-fundamentalists.
Ex-Tian Home Page A mailing list/web page for ex-Christians of all sorts.

Personal Web Pages:

The Happy HereticWeb site of Judith Hayes, author of In God We Trust: But Which One?. Great articles.
The Other SideThe athiesm page of a guy I know from IRC.

Bonfly--On the Wall A fellow agnostic's homepage (WHOOHOO!!! RIGHT ON BRO!); all kinds of interesting stuff there.

Conspiracy Theories:

Black-Ops A big A-Z catalog of various conspiracy theories.
In Pursuit of ReasonSeeks to debunk New World Order and Federal Reserve conspiracy theories.
Christians and Conspiracy Theories An article written decrying the damage being done to Christianity by reliance on belief in conspiracy theories.
50 Greatest Conspiracy Theories of all Time Web page based on the book.

Miscellaneous Stuff:

(For the humor-impaired, the E.A.C. is a JOKE, a FUNNY HA-HA bit of SATIRE not meant to be taken seriously. I mean, if I really did have a black helicopter, I certainly wouldn't be bragging about it on the 'Net now would I?)

Drummond:Yes! The individual human mind. In a child's power to master the multiplication talbe there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "Amens!" "Holy, Holies!" and "Hosannahs!" AN idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is more of a miracle than any sticks turned to snakes, or the parting of waters! But are we now to halt the march of progress because Mr. Brady frightens us with a fable? Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You've got to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man behind a counter who says, "All right, you can have a telephone; but you'll have to give up privacy, the charm of distance. Madam, you may vote, but at a price; you lose the right to retreat behind a powder-puff or a petticoat. Mister, you may conquer the air; but the birds will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline!" Darwin moved us forward to a hilltop, where we could look back and see the way from which we came. But for this view, this insight, this knowledge, we must abandon our faith in the pleasent poetry of Genesis." ---Inherit the Wind