Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
(Quran:Ch.82v.6-8)
b b b __________________________
Say: Allah produceth Creation, then reproduceth it. How then, are ye misled! (Quran:Ch.10v.34)
And He is cognizant of all creation(Quran:Ch.36v.79)
Thy Lord does create and choose what He pleases: no choice have they (in the matter): Glory to Allah! and far is He above all that they associate (with Him)!(Quran:Ch.28v.68) __________________________ Interestingly, in the discussions between evolutionists and creationists, we see that the main point -God and -what God misses to reach in the present life forms, is not considered. Therefore, the aim of this board, is to see different views for understanding what God (may have) missed (or not) by choosing the present life forms, instead of another alternative.
Most of creationists, keep searching inconsistencies between physical concepts and biological concepts, as if all are not result of God's design and engineering; and subject to His Power. Evolutionists on the other hand, while using randomness whenever they desire, keep saying that life is a deterministic result of physical facts; as if the latter facts are themselves entirely deterministic, as if they came from nowhere and as if they disable God's ability to use His wish as to what and when to create. Total violations of logic, as if minds spoiled by the enormous greatness of God's arts.
Even if you are an atheist evolutionist; and although your great findings, you must accept that living things are somewhat special. If you do not accept this, then get one thausand small papers; and write on each of them the numbers, from 1 to 1000, put them in a sack, shake it; and try to pull them one by one (each pulled, being put in again) in order: 1,2,3,...1000 (Of course, when you begin the pull, you have to finish 1000 pulls, for in the nature there is nobody to stop a non-relevant happening. If your task is a little bit difficult, you may get help from all creatures that exist and have existed on earth; unfortunately, this will help only in the diminishing of 50 of the below digits (an optimistic assumption).).
How many years do we have to wait your trials?
An approximately answer: Only, a 3000 digit number seconds, if we accept that you pull each in one second (if you find this task unfair, saying! that biological events happen in much shorter times, let us assume that you are enabled to make each pull in [1 / a hundred digit number]* [a second] time. However, you (we too) look hopeless, do not you (we too). Because the result is a little!!! bit longer than your long long long 5 billion years: Only [a 2983 digit number] *(attention! times) [your long period (which made the evolution of current species indispensable)]!!! Ah, very naturally, living creatures do not require such order(s)!!!
Again, if you find 5billion years long enough, would you believe in evolution if it took only one second? I do not see why you would. For there is not important difference between one second and your 5 billion years, when even only the above numbers are considered. But I know that you will probably say: "If it happened in one second, I would believe, because in that case most of my explanations would not exist" as if your explanations are not part of the living world and as if they do not increase their greatness.
Now three preliminary questions for following questions:
a. Can you make a rectangle, bringing two circles together?
b. Can two squares form a rectangle if someONE does not interfere with the necessary intention, knowledge, conscience and design?
c. Which one of the requirements of the above questions does not need the other and can be a sufficient source? And alone logically meaningful?
Now, the questions:
Defending evolution;
1. Do you mean that God did not determine the constitution of present and past life forms by selecting the conditions which existed at the beginning of your evolution (a past background)? And do you mean that these conditions could not be different?
2. Do you mean that God did not determine the shape of these life forms when deciding physical relations (a continuous and dynamic background) (for example as laws, as you call them)?
3. If you say no, to the above questions, and assign the task to randomness (wholly or partially), do you mean that randomness appears without needing anything: Time in which the necessary trials may happen, the objects [which I wonder whether you are unable to explain without randomness] the energy, the place and if there are, other constituents necessary for a random event may happen) Reconsider the first paragraph and see this.
4. Do you mean that God could not have created a totally or partially different set of life, with or without equilibrium; without depending on the positive or negative answers to the above two questions (CHAOS)? And do you mean that His will does (has) not appear(ed). (Do not you believe that we will see different life forms appearing from the laboratories -Note:Qur'an says so.)
5. Do you mean that your knowledge is prior to the facts? 6.Do you mean that for the creatures show God, they must depend on no rule? Why?
7.Does not evolution depend entirely totally on the above facts, and on THE CREATOR of them? And without any of them, is not its inexistence very easily imaginable?
So, AT EVERY STAGE OF LIFE GOD ACTS.
A good question for unbelievers is then: If what He would have acted?
I do really wonder.
B
WHAT IF THERE ARE OTHER WORLDS?
B
One could ask: "Our world is HARDLY the only one in the universe, so the odds were a little better of life evolving. Your challenge narrows the possibility to one chance, which wasn't the case."Awakening Challenges to Evolutionists
BO man! What has seduced thee from thy Lord Most Beneficent?-
Him Who created thee. Fashioned thee in due proportion, and gave thee a just bias;
Into whatever form He pleased He constituted you.
(Quran:Ch.82v.6-8)
B 1. The less weak aspect: That there is other worlds like ours which is not proved, can not be used in the explanation of another probability.
2. The weakest aspect:
B It is said:"Our world is hardly the only one in the universe, so the odds were a little better of life evolving. Your challenge narrows the possibility to one chance, which wasn't the case"
B
BIf the probability of an order in this world is: a/b, then if there is another world, a/b, the a/b will be 2*a/b, if another one,3*a/b, if another one
B4*a/b and so on; until a/b equals 1, (or more than one?). And nobody can put an ultimate limit to this.
BHowever, there is something missing in this reasoning:
This is the fact that, the structure of worlds (earthes or similar things) where life can exist is also subject to probability. Only think of necessary heat level, gravity, radiation, appropriately existing and non-existing elements, ... that happen to exist in this world for necessary years.
Now, as worlds also require probability, we can easily say that if the probability of one world (appropriate for life) is 1/x; then the probability of two similar worlds in necessary conditions, is 1/2x; for more similar ones, in the same way, 1/3x, 1/4x and so on.
Thus, the gross probabilities of earlier symbolic version of the statement will be respectively: [2*a/b]*[1/2x]; [3*a/b]*[1/3x]; [4*a/b]*[1/4x] and as seen, the gross probability a/(b*x) is fix; and if you add the order in the subatomic levels and the order in the subelectronic levels, and the order in the frames (space,time) and so on; you will have a probability as: a/b*x*y*z*aa*ab*... and as none of the mentioned orders allow for b, x, y, z and so on to be between 0 and 1, it requires a little bit talent to not to believe in the Greatness of Allah (Real God).
B Really, many give the task of the evolution of the life to the incredible number of the celestial objects; for this makes many mathematically improbable/difficult things probable;
When some facts are omitted, this is really a strong argument. You can explain with it anything. Even if you found an IBM computer, pentium pro, somewhere in the desert or even on a small meteroid, and even if there was no men in the universe, one can explain this happening with the above argument. Am I wrong? No. And perhaps there are many of them wandering in the space. (There must be in fact, if this argument is right.)
On the other hand, celestial or of any other kind, all matter have some properties; one of which is order in many levels. Now, in the probabilistic approach, we may reason as my previous symbolic reasoning (a/b*x*y*z...); and we can say that the increase in the quantity of celestial things counters the increase in the probability of specifically orderly things-as life: As the number of celestial objects increases, the probability of an orderly thing increases, but the probability of the increased number of celestial objects decreases. So the multitude of celestial objects is neutralized and is not useful in this aspect.
And for explaining everything that has order by probability, you need infinite celestial objects, the probability of which is aproximately; x/infinity=0.
B WHAT IF THERE ARE PARTIAL ORDERS? B Some will argue:" It is not necessary for life to evolve that 1000 papers be in order; a limited order would do."
BThen I will have to say that this limited order will never be more simple than 1000 consecutive number; but incomparably more complex combinaison; and these combinaisons are to be accompanied by following similar orders -say orders of more than one levels in the same time.
BNevertheless, in order to understand this better, one has to try to sum up the number of all orderly combinaisons in ten small papers; try to find out the probability of ANY of them in ALL combinaisons that one may make with these ten papers; and then find the same result for a thousand small papers. And see what a distance he will have traversed with the above argument - it is sufficient that we are given only the number of digits of O(orderly combinaisons) and A (Number of all combinaisons) in O/A.
B One who accepts evolution without God, is faced two different ways, both of which takes an objective person to His Lord: To refuse the acceptability of such a far randomness; and to assign the order we witness in life as everywhere else, strictly to the historical and dynamic background of life, which indispensably requires a Great Planner or both. Do you accept none? What do you accept then and why?
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