JhOne: Hello everybody and welcome to the debut edition of “The Faceoff”. It’s the column where you see two average internet wrestling fans debate various topics in the wacky world of professional wrestling. We usually do two current event topics and one classic topic. These topics are entered in by some of the members of our very own Top Rope Talk Forum.

Just to give you a short background on us, I’ve been watching wrestling for about 13 years now [damn I’m old now :( ]. I started off being a Macho Man fan, then a Bret Fan, and then anything else Vince shoved down my throat as a top babyface. At this point, I’m watching WWE and TNA on a weekly basis but my interest has waned in the past years, but obviously I still love this damn thing. ICONZ, tell them a bit about yourself.

WWFICONZ: Well, I’ve been watching wrestling a bit longer than JhOne over there – pretty much since I was born, 21 years ago.  I was a Hulkamaniac, still am, and damn proud of it.  And let’s not forget Bret, Owen, and anyone else that was involved in the re-make of the Hart Foundation back in 1997, because, well, I’m Canadian, and anyone going against them during those time should have been dragged down Yonge Street by the…well, never mind.  Also, like JhOne, I watch both WWE and TNA, although I am more enthusiastic about TNA and what they might become in the next few years rather than Vince McMahon and co.’s product.  It’s mainly for that reason why I’m still a wrestling fan.  That, and the hope that, one day, ECW will be resurrected full time.  A dream, I know.

JhOne: Well, now that we got the formalities out of the way, I believe it is time for the…[cue scary music] THE FACE OFF~! It’s time for ICONZ to go down like Bret Hart at Survivor Series 1997!

WWFICONZ: Oh no, you didn’t!  Bring it on!

1. Well, as of Raw on 2/20/06 it is official. It will be John Cena vs. Triple H for the WWE Championship. But the question is Triple H vs. John Cena a Money match for WrestleMania?

JhOne: If you would have asked this question back during the point in time where Cena first got drafted to Raw, this would be easily a yes. However, the sad fact is that the WWE absolutely botched Cena’s babyface run to the point where he was getting the biggest heat on the Raw brand. Luckily the Edge feud has allowed him to regain a little momentum, but I can’t honestly say that there will be saying: Oh! Cena vs. Triple H! I got to see this! The only way this becomes a money match is if Creative does a tremendous job, and considering their last few months that shit ain’t going to happen.

WWFICONZ: Here’s the deal. I would much rather have seen Edge vs. Triple H or even a Triple Threat Match that involved those two and Cena, but Edge was a transitional champion, and that’s just the sad reality of it all. Vince McMahon panicked when the fans went Toronto on them and booed Cena, so they made him chase the belt, which did work up until he won it again. If you hear the fans, they’re booing him again, and it’s getting more prominent as the weeks go by. So, why is any of this important? Because it means there is some sort of heat behind this match already. It may not be good heat, but it’s there. The fans have shown that they do care about Cena just a little bit, and the writers can hopefully build on that leading up to WrestleMania. History shows that they seem to try for these few months leading up to the show, and then pack it in for the rest of the year. It can be a must-see match, but not for the actual wrestling. Triple H, in my opinion, has never been a good wrestler, and anyone thinking Cena is decent is kidding themselves. It will be all about the buildup and the “sports entertainment” aspect of it all. But, a money match? Would I throw down cash just to see this? If I did have the bills to do so, then maybe I would just to see how the fans would react to it. Let’s not forget where this show is happening. It’s Chicago, which is up there with Toronto, Montreal, and New York City is regards to “smart” wrestling fans voicing their opinions on live television. It could be up there with Lesnar vs. Goldberg at WrestleMania XX in regards to crowd heat.

JhOne: Eh, I think Chicago (my hometown, BTW) is a better crowd then Toronto, Montreal and NYC in the fact that they actually cheer babyfaces more than those other cities. Hell, at WM13 Bret Hart actually got a decent pop. But anyways, I think I probably should have asked the question if this a “money feud” instead of a money match. I don’t think the match is going to be awesome either, but the feud could be alright. When Triple H has a good/great babyface to work off of, he can do great stuff. If the WWE books Cena correctly (which they ALMOST had with the Edge feud) this could be a very entertaining feud. And hell, who knows. If Cena gets motivated and Triple H molds a great match around Cena’s five moves of doom, we could have a WrestleMania moment. But, I agree with you ICONZ. Edge should be involved in this somehow. Who the hell cares if the plan was always for Edge to lose? Edge has started this awesome string of Raw ratings and HE was the reason why Cena was finally fresh as a babyface again. Instead of being smart and changing plans, he got jobbed out like a bitch and now is lacking credibility and is just another guy on the roster. I feel so sorry for the guy.

WWFICONZ: You asked can it be a money feud. I think it can, but not with just Triple H and John Cena involved. Like you said, Edge must be sprinkled on this feud to set him up for a shot at the championship after WresteMania. The chances of that happening, though, are probably nil, and that is a damn shame because Edge is a true main eventer. It was proven during his all too brief run as champion. Triple H’s character has gone way past stale. Calling himself “The King of Kings” or whatever the hell he says is the same thing as the many other catchphrases he’s used. Cena, like I said at the beginning, has the fans turning on him yet again because he is holding that belt. The only other option for the WWE, in my view, is to put the belt back on Edge. However, once again, it isn’t going to happen, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Edge never becomes champion again, ala Chris Jericho. Man, I’m already sick of Cena and Triple H feuding and we’re like one week into it. How sad is that?!

JhOne: Well, we both agree that this isn’t really a money feud. It’s obvious that we have two sorta stale characters going into a feud that is suppose to be the best of the year. I think we both also can agree Edge is the loser in all this. I’m okay with not having him be a long term champion, but the way he got bitched out at Rumble was horrible. Man, this isn’t the way this thing is suppose to go. We are suppose to argue!

WWFICONZ: Hey, blame McMahon for that!  He’s supposed to give us interesting, compelling characters to watch every week, and he is expected to produce feuds that will captivate the audience, cause debates, and really just make you want more.  When Triple H and Cena are this stale, an argument among fans is very unlikely.  So, with that in mind, let’s move on shall we.

2. With his storyline with Triple H being ended, his feud with Edge over, Ric Flair doesn’t seem to have much to look forward to in terms of feuds. When should the Nature Boy permanently hang up the boots?

WWFICONZ: Now! Right now! Style and profile yourself into Vinny Mac’s office there at Titan Towers, throw your wrestling boots at him, Horsemen style of course, and tell him, “I’m done….WOOOOO!” He can still wrestle, yes, but at a pace so slow that it makes the sport look more fake than usual. Take a look at his #1 Contender’s Tournament match he had with Triple H a few weeks ago. So slow moving that I couldn’t watch. So many botched spots because they want to protect Flair’s health, and I don’t blame them, because I wouldn’t want to be the guy that is burdened with the fact that they might have crippled him. It was said a month or two ago that he’s still wrestling because he owes the government money in taxes that he hasn’t paid. Well, you know what? His body will give up on him completely before he’d be able to pay it all back. Hang it up, Ric. The Nature Boy should leave the squared-circle and stand on the outside looking in cheering on a protégé or stay backstage and help the younger guys put together their matches. In-ring is not an option.

JhOne: I wouldn’t say he should hang them up right now, but I think by mid year it should be time for him to retire. Unfortunately like you said, he’s still working because he has to pay off his debts. It’s sad really that a guy that a good majority of wrestling fans will consider the greatest ever has to wrestle WELL past his prime just to pay taxes. Even worse here is that they have NO good storylines for Ric Flair. They blew through the Triple H feud in a span of a month and a half when that could have provided solid episodic television for much longer. The best thing they can do for Flair is have him job the IC strap to someone who they feel is the future, maybe build up a title feud with Triple H where they build it as his last chance at greatness, and then slowly move him into a managerial mode. But yeah, Flair is hitting 57 now. He just can’t be in that ring too much longer. I feared for his life in that TLC match.

WWFICONZ: I don’t see what sticking around for a few more months will do for him or the WWE. Yes, he needs to drop the Intercontinental Championship, but someone beating him just isn’t a big deal. Notching a victory over Flair doesn’t have the same impact that it once did. He can’t give “the rub” to anyone because he is well past his prime and it just isn’t believable for him to be winning matches in this stage of his life. Like you said, there are no good storylines for Flair. A last chance at greatness? Didn’t that happen when he faced Triple H for the World Heavyweight Championship in South Carolina some time back? Having him walk out one night on RAW and giving him as much time as he wants for a retirement speech is good enough, and would be a respectful, dignified way for him to go out. There is no need for him to embarrass himself and the company, and tarnish whatever type of legacy he may have by dragging out his career for a few more months.

JhOne: ICONZ, Edge feuded with Flair for a two week period for the WWE Title. The TLC match on Raw was one of the few heated Raw matches that they had. If you put a good storyline around it, someone still gets a good rub from beating Ric Flair. That is the one thing that Flair has maintained. He is always an intriguing character that always can draw some crowd reaction. I just think Flair vs. Triple H at, say, Vengeance can draw. I know they’ve done it before, but they can do it again. It’s a great, simple underdog story that has worked before. I think the fact here is that Flair already has his legacy set as the greatest wrestler of the 80’s and he’s gonna go as long as he needs/wants to. In a way it’s sad, but in another way it’s sorta fun.

WWFICONZ:  Fun for you, but not for me.  I can’t stand watching a man that age attempt to wrestle at the same pace of people 20 years younger.  Now, I know, I said I’m a Hogan fan, and that I’m pretty much contradicting myself here, seeing as how the same can be said for Hulk, and I realize that as well.  But, do you see Hogan as a full time wrestler?  No, but we do see it with Flair, and that is just sad.  Yes, his match TLC Match with Edge was great television, but because it was a spot-fest, not that there’s anything wrong with those types of matches, but that’s the only way you would be able to get me to watch Flair at this stage of his career.  Like you said, Triple H vs. Flair with the Nature Boy as the underdog has been done before, so why do it again?  Just for a proper sendoff for Flair?  I don’t know.  A retirement speech, or ever better, an entire tribute show concluding with Flair giving one last farewell would be fine for me.  But, one more run in a semi-top tier feud?  Just can’t see it being believable any longer.

JhOne:  Well, I understand why people don't wanna see Flair trot onto screen anymore. But unfortunately, I'm a huge Flair mark at this point. The man can do little wrong when he's on screen or in the ring. I sure don't agree with how he jobbed the IC Title to Shelton on a random Raw and he's now MITB. Still though, I might gak myself if Flair wins that match. Ah well, to each it's own.

3. And now for the first time ever, it’s time for the classic question of the month. This was submitted by that young lass Injection in our forums. He would like to here our opinions on who is the better WWE Superstar: Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart?

JhOne: Uh oh, this may be the question where I have to turn in my Hart fanclub card. But the correct answer here is Shawn Michaels. Bret Hart is an EXCELLENT worker. He went to the ring and probably told a story better than anyone else in his generation. However, I think outside of wrestling ability, Shawn is just the better overall package. He’s been a better draw for the WWE I assume than Bret, he cut better promos than Bret and was a better character than Bret. The question is who is the better superstar. Bret is the better wrestler. Shawn is the better superstar.

WWFICONZ: Oh my…I might go off on this one. I go back to the Canada vs. USA feud that was created back in 1997. Bret was a superstar, and I can base that on the reactions he got from the crowds both in the U.S. and in Canada. If he wasn’t a superstar, the fans wouldn’t have cared to react to him at all. He was a superstar when he took on Austin at WrestleMania 13. He was a superstar when he feuded with Shawn Michaels for that time up until Survivor Series 1997. He was a superstar since they put the Intercontinental Championship on him all those many years back. He was a superstar that you didn’t feel guilty cheering for. He was all that was good about wrestling back in the 90s. I can’t call Michaels a superstar not because I hate the guy with a passion, but because he just wasn’t from where I’m sitting. Yes, he headlined WrestleMania. Yes, he was a main eventer for years in the WWE, but so was Bret. And on top of that, like you said, Bret was the better worker. The Hitman gets the nod here.

JhOne: Bret Hart was definitely a superstar. There is no doubting that. In fact, if someone said that Bret wasn’t a superstar I’d call him an idiot. However, like I said before, Shawn Michaels is just a better overall package than Bret on the whole and that makes him a better superstar to me. Like I said, Shawn was better on the promo, a better character, had more charisma than Bret. Hell, I even think that Shawn was a better draw as World Champion than Bret was as World Champion. Plus, on the whole I think Shawn will go down on having more classic matches than Bret. Bret has had the classic matches, the legion of fans. It’s just when someone says “WWE Superstar”. I think Shawn Michaels before Bret Hart because he fits the mold of that more than Bret. Man, I feel so dirty not arguing for my childhood hero. But hey, I guess that’s my payback for him being so damn bitter over the years.

WWFICONZ: When Michaels was on top and when Bret was on top were two different times in my opinion. Bret had his run from the pre-Attitude era into the beginning stages of it. Michaels took over when they forced him out, which, in turn, helped the WWF garner more interest from fans because of the audacity of what they did – by blurring the line between work and shoot with “Vince screwing Bret”. Ratings grew because of the company constantly pushing the envelope, and Michaels just happened to one of many go-to guys during that time. When Bret was on top, the main event picture was not nearly as crowded when Michaels was on top, which means Bret didn’t have as much help as Michaels did when it came to drawing fans to the product. The same can be said, to a degree, when it comes to classic matches. I remember Bret vs. Owen at WrestleMania X and at SummerSlam, Bret vs. The British Bulldog at another SummerSlam, Bret vs. Mr. Perfect from, again, a SummerSlam, and Bret vs. Austin at WrestleMania 13. Michaels? I guess my bias is blinding me because I don’t see many classics coming from him, except for his run-ins with Kurt Angle over the past while. When it comes to fitting the mold…well, that’s where Survivor Series 1997 comes in. Vince didn’t see Bret as fitting the mold anymore when it came to a WWF Superstar, as he was older and didn’t have the in-you-face attitude that Michaels had, so he promptly got rid of him. Of course, there were others reasons to it as well, but I think that was one of the main ones. Bret was a superstar, a WWF superstar. Just because he didn’t conform to the overlord that was Vince McMahon doesn’t make him any else of one.

JhOne: I think we are going have to agree to disagree here. I think we both have made solid points on why we feel each guy are the better superstar. It just may be a matter of taste and what you remember each guy as. I remember Bret Hart as one awesome wrestler, who IMO was a sorta average character (outside of the USA vs Canada stuff). I remember Shawn as being an excellent promo guy, excellent character and having excellent matches. Still, I definitely see where people feel that Bret is a greater WWE superstar.

WWFICONZ: And I suppose I can grudgingly accept the fact that there are fans out there that like Michaels, and can see past how much of a bastard this punk is in regards to his backstage personality.  He is a superstar, I’ll give him that much, but not much more.

JhOne: Well that is all we have time for this month. We’ll be back next month hopefully to discuss more issues within the wacky world of professional wrestling. And of course, to watch ICONZ to do the J-O-B once again.

WWFICONZ:  Heh, if that’s the case, and I’ll have to go home and find my smile, JhOne, cause this Canadian don’t lay down for anyone!
 

JhOne: Alright, for ICONZ I’m JhOne. We’ll catch you at the next Faceoff!