The Contemporary A Cappella Newsletter Interviews Series:
Originally appeared in the January 1992 issue of the CAN.
The Persuasions are the Grand-daddies of A Cappella. They were singing a cappella before many of us were born. While they've never had a hit album, they've recorded many over the years, including several for Elektra Records. Whether or not we knew the group before 1990, we did after Spike Lee's Do It A Cappella, whose success reminded us of the Persuasions' tremendous talent. Given their longevity, it's amazing that the current quartet is composed of 4 out of 5 of the original group. Baritone Herbert "Toubo" Rhoad died suddenly in 1988, and it was clear from this interview that he is still sorely missed. Yet the Persuasions continue their a cappella mission, dedicating many performances to his memory. this interview took place while they were celebrating their 30th anniversary, and as Jimmy was quick to point out, they "still don't got no band!"
CAN: Tell me about the origin of the Persuasions. How did the group get started and when?
JH: The Persuasions began in February or March of 1962, and it was a really strange beginning because none of us are originally from New York. We didn't go to school together, we didn't grow up together -- we all came from different states, mostly southern states with the exception of Jay, who came from Detroit. But it was like a calling or a push to go to New York, for me, from Virginia. "Go to New York." Why? I didn't know why I was coming to New York -- I never liked New York before. It was a push for Jerry to leave Florida and come to New York, Joe to leave North Carolina and come to New York, Toubo to leave South Carolina and come to New York.
We all moved into the same neighborhood, and we used to go to this park at Green and Washington every day and play basketball. Afterwards, we would just get together and sing. [There were] about 20 or 30 guys, but out of those 20 guys I could hear that there was somebody in this group of guys that really knew how to sing. The trick was to find out who it was.
So, one day we were in the park singing, and I said, "Well listen, why don't you guys come to my apartment tonight, and let's have a rehearsal. Let's get together a little group." And the 5 guys that showed up turned out to be the Persuasions 30 years later. The origins of the group were just so strange, we feel like it was a spiritual thing. We got one friend of ours whose been with us for years, and he calls us "the 5 Godly Men." That was his name for the Persuasions. He would see us and say, "There are the 5 Godly Men." And we kind of feel that way too, because we are different. Not just that being a cappella makes us different from other groups, because there are a lot of a cappella groups. It's just something else that makes us a bit different. We feel like we are on a mission; we are doing some work for somebody.
CAN: What would you say was your first break?
JH: We really haven't had a "big" break yet, because we haven't had a hit record. But see, that's also another one of these little things that makes you think that something kind of special's going on. We've done about 14 or 15 albums, but we've never had a hit. Yet after 30 years, we are still here, and we're still working.
As for the first time things started happening for us, we had done this tape in this garage, just messing around singing. Frankly, nobody knew anyone was recording it. This guy happened to give it to a guy over in Jersey City who owned this record store, and he was playing the music [at his store]. It was piped outside, and this other guy, David Dashev [who went on to become the group's manager], walks by and hears it. He gets in touch with us and tells us that he knows this guy out in California who might be interested in giving us a record deal. We said, "Yeah, sure, fine, whatever..."
So, he sent the tape out to this guy, and the guy turns out to be Frank Zappa. Zappa really liked the tape, and the next thing we knew, we had 5 round-trip airline tickets to come out to California and record on his label. So we went there and we did it, and that was the first album that the Persuasions did. Since then, we've been steady doing it. [Ed. note: The Persuasions performed at a tribute to Zappa in New York City last September along with Rockapella and other musicians]
You know, people often ask us about other a cappella groups, how we feel about other a cappella groups. You know, we feel great about it! To make a cappella a success, we all have to work together. What we're trying to do is make a cappella grab a toehold in the mainstream of the music industry. A cappella still doesn't have that toehold, you know what I mean? It's sporadic -- you got a group here, a group there.... Somebody says, "So, what about a cappella?... A cappella? What about it?... That's those guys that sing without a band."
What we're trying to do is get a cappella in the mainstream, so when you say "a cappella," the kids are going to know what a cappella is -- everybody is going know what a cappella is. It's going to be like when you hear a little kid say, "I don't want to hear that record anymore. I want to hear some rap." That's the way it's going to be with a cappella. So, we feel great about whoever is trying to venture out into this. We encourage them to do so -- not to try to monopolize this or anything like that. We need all the help we can get to put this a cappella trip into the mainstream. So, the more the merrier!
A guy was asking me the yesterday if we felt like we were part of the history of a cappella. Sure I feel that way. I mean, I'm not saying that we are the first people to have sung a cappella, but certainly we've carried on a tradition that had long been forgotten. There were people doing a cappella before us; there were groups back in the early 50's doing a cappella. But then that era disappeared and was no more. And we came along and said, "Hey, we're going to hold on to this. We're not going to let this just die out." And for about 20-25 years, we were the only people, that I knew of anyway, that were doing a cappella. Gradually, a couple of other groups started to trickle down, and trickle down, and trickle down. What we're seeing now is really an influx of groups that are saying, "Hey, we don't need instruments -- let's do this thing a cappella."
I think, at last, it's beginning to get noticed as other groups are out there doing it -- Take 6, the Nylons, whatever. Every place we perform, there's always 4 or 5 young guys that come to the show, and you just look out there and you know that they're a group. They always get the table right up front, and they're always dressed real clean. They're cool, sitting out there waiting for us to say, "Hey, are you guys a group?" And they say, "Yeah, we're a group." [And we say] "You want to come up and do something?"
So, this is what I'm saying: we encourage it. We go around the country and say, "Hey, you got a group? Get it together, work hard at it, and eventually somebody's going to believe in this." It's a legitimate form of music; it's just as legit as any of the other categories that they give Grammies for. Hopefully one day, somebody will receive an a cappella Grammy.
CAN: You've talked about trying to get a cappella a place in the mainstream, so there must have been some struggles for you guys. What were some of the tougher times like?
JH: It's been bad and it's been good. You take the bad with the good, the good with the bad. It's been ups and downs, but for the last 25 years, we haven't had to work at a 9-to-5. We've just been doing this, but there are times that there's just no work. Sometimes, we'd go for like 6 weeks, and that's a very long time to go without a paycheck when this is what you do to survive. It'd be like 6 weeks, and I'd call my agent and I'd say, "I can't believe this. You mean to tell me nobody out there -- all these thousands of clubs, thousands of concert promoters -- that nobody wants to hear the Persuasions?" And he'd say, "I'm trying, I'm trying."
But then it comes along and you get a gig. And a lot of times it isn't the gig that's paying the most money in the world, but when you do go out and work, you find that you get this inner feeling of happiness. I don't know if it's because you're so happy to be working and you haven't worked in so long, or it's just that you're out here doing what you love to do. You're in front of people and you're performing for them, you're singing for them, and you just feel great about that.
It has been a struggle, trying to get the industry to believe in what you're doing, that what you're doing is legit. We had one record president who had signed the group -- I guess it was a tax write-off or something -- come to us and tell us, "I don't know what a cappella is, I never heard of a cappella, I like the way you guys sing, but I don't know what to do with it. I don't know how to market this -- I don't know what to do with it! If anybody has any ideas, tell me, because I don't know where to go from here." This was the president of a record company who made that statement! He, like so many other people, just wasn't hip to a cappella, and that's really the struggle.
CAN: What were the best times like -- what was your biggest triumph or your most exciting memory?
JH: I could go back to, I think, 1973 when we put out Streetcorner Symphony. [It] was one of our biggest selling albums, and I think that was our first time to Europe. I don't remember if it was Stevie Wonder or Van Morrison that we went over with first, but that was great. We had this album out that was going pretty well, and we were real proud of it. It had some nice songs on it and it was making some noise; it was selling. The next thing we know, we were told we were going to be opening for Van Morrison or Stevie Wonder in Europe!
As the years went on, the trip to Israel in 1980 stands out. The 6 or 8 weeks we spent over there -- that was beautiful. Things that I had read about in the Bible, things I had been taught in Sunday School or taught by my mom: I had the opportunity to see some of these things, and that was great.
And then the most recent thing was this Carribean Cruise that we just took in December. I thought that I had been on a cruise before, but I had never been on a cruise, you know? This was a cruise. This was aboard the S.S. Norway, the biggest cruise ship in the world, and we just cruised the Carribean. It was a Rhythm-and-Blues Cruise, and there were quite a few blues acts on the ship. We just had a ball! We only had to perform 1 night, and that was really nice. We used to go up to Boston and jump on this boat and it would go up from Boston to Provincetown. And I thought that was a cruise, but that was no cruise -- that was like riding a little motor boat.
CAN: Back to the group itself, how did the Persuasions get their name?
JH: Well, I got the name out of the Bible. The name came out of the Bible. After we got together and held a couple of rehearsals, we knew we were serious about putting this thing together. So then we said, "Well, what we got to do is come up with a name. So, everybody go home and think of some names." We had come up with all kinds of stuff : the Chessmen, the Gentlemen, and all that. Well, I was just sitting here one night, looking through the Bible, and when it opened up -- I don't remember what chapter or what verse -- it seemed like the first word that my eyes focused on was "persuasion." And I said, "God, the Persuasions -- this has got to be Heaven [talking]. Because, just as Jesus had to persuade the people to listen to his teachings, this is what we're going to have to do. There ain't nobody right now into a cappella singing; everybody is into other kinds of music, so it's really going to be a job to see if we can persuade the industry and the public."
So, that's how we got it. I went to the guys the next day and said, "The Persuasions." And everybody was down for that. There was no "Well, what about this? What about that?" Everybody said, "That's it. That's what we are. We are the Persuasions." And we all came up with the same reasons. Nobody had to call anybody that night and tell them about it. When we got together the next evening after work, everybody said almost the same identical thing: that we really were going to have to persuade people to listen to this a cappella thing.
CAN: Give me a brief rundown of the guys and what they're like, including Toubo.
JH: Toubo was a great guy. We used to call him "the quiet man." He was the baritone. Toubo was the "blue collar" singer -- Toubo was [who] the average guy that had a job would look at and say, "Hey I can do that right there. I know I can do that. I can sing what Toubo's doing, I can take Toubo's note." And people used to come on stage and tell us that. "Toubo, I can sing your note." He was like the glue. He kind of like held all the harmonies. That note that he did kind of like glued all the rest of the notes together. That was Herbert "Toubo" Rhoad.
Then we have Jay Otis Washington, who's our 1st tenor-2nd tenor, and Jay also does some lead. Jay is a different kind of singer. Jay is the one of the Persuasions that didn't come out of the church. Now I'm not saying Jay doesn't go to church, I'm saying that Jay I don't think was ever into the church choir like the other four of us. You know, we were Southern boys. You had to go to Sunday School; you had to be in the choir. Jay was listening to old-time pop music and blues and jazz. So, that segment of our repertoire is from Jay. Jay teaches us all these old blues songs, like the song that he does, "Prison Walls" -- I had never heard that song before, and it's a great song. Jay brings all that into the group.
Then we got Joe Russell -- "Sweet Joe." He's 1st/2nd tenor and occasionally lead, and Joe is like the gospel singer. Joe is really down on gospel. I think Joe has the most powerful voice out of all of us in the group. Joe is really into gospel, and he kind of handles that part of it.
Then there's Jerry [Lawson]. Jerry is really a genius. I'll put Jerry up against any other lead singers in the world. [Take] whoever you think is the best lead singer in the world, and Jerry'll give them a run for their money. The guy's just so talented. People ask us how we come up with our original songs. I'll come up with a bass line, and Jerry's so gifted at ad-libbing. I'll give him a bass line, and he can just ad-lib. And we say, "Wow -- we got a song!" Then, all we have to do is just change those ad-libs into words that make some kind of sense. We got a song. This guy is just the best at that.
And then you got the bass, the foundation. You can't just start in the middle of the air; you got to lay the foundation first. And that's my job. I had a couple of singers that I used to admire growing up. In fact, they were both "Jimmy's" -- Jimmy Ricks of the Ravens and Jimmy Jones of the Harmonizing 4. I thought those two guys were the greatest bass singers I heard in my life. At that time, I didn't have a bass voice. I had a little ol' girl's voice. But my head was into the sound that the bass made. I couldn't make the sound, because I had a little ol' girl's voice, but I knew all the changes that the bass was supposed to make, just doing it in a higher register. And I got up one morning, and I didn't have that little girl's voice anymore.
CAN: In 1990, you all sang as part of Spike Lee's PBS special, "Do It A Cappella." What did that show and its soundtrack album do for your career in the 90's?
JH: Our popularity just went up like 65 to 75%. It seemed like everybody in the country saw that show! It was surprising to me because it was on PBS, and very few people look at PBS. Then, in the TV Guide they did have a picture of the Persuasions. I said, "Wow -- this is great." So I went out and bought TV Guides like you ain't ever seen TV Guides before in your life! I went to every store in the neighborhood and was buying all the TV Guides.
But that show did do a lot for our popularity. We did an album on Elektra/Asylum label in 1977, Chirpin', and because of the Spike Lee thing, Elektra re-issued Chirpin' because that was out of print. It's out on CD and cassette now [Elektra CD 1099-2] because of the show. It seemed like everybody saw it. We've gotten a lot of jobs from that, a lot of commercials and things. That special was really great for us, and that's what we need more of to promote this a cappella thing.
CAN: You sang with Take 6 and Rockapella on the show, among others. What do you think of these other styles -- what's your opinion on the "state of the art?"
JH: Well, that's what makes a cappella what it is, the different styles. They're not doing what we're doing; they're doing something all around different. Take 6 is doing like a jazz/blues, modern, progressive thing. Then, Rockapella is doing the thing that they do, and we're doing it the way that we do it. I just love it! It seems like all the a cappella groups have their own style. I think they are aware that they need to have some kind of identification. I know at one time they all used to try and sing it the way we were singing it. They would take our songs and they would sing them, and I would tell them, "That's great, man, but we sing it that way." You can use the song -- it ain't our song. We covered the song; somebody else recorded the song, like the Temptations. We do it quite differently from the Temptations, though. If you hear the Temptations do it, you will know that it's the Temptations without seeing them. If you hear the Persuasions do it, you'll know that it's the Persuasions without seeing us.
So, when you sing a song, you got to have some kind of identification. Then, people can listen without seeing you and say, "Hey, that's Take 6" or whatever. A cappella's great that way, because there's so many different ways it can be done.
CAN: So what's next for the Persuasions?
JH: Right now, we have an album that we're trying to finish up. Hopefully we'll have it out by the end of April or the beginning of May. It's just got to be mixed and mastered, and the Persuasions are back out again.
CAN: Is this on a label, or are you producing it yourself?
JH: We're doing this ourselves. This is the first we've ever done, but we're producing this ourselves, hopefully on our own label. But we will get this out. Right now, we've got three albums already recorded, three or four albums because we've got a Christmas album. Already recorded, just laying here, waiting. We've been biding our time with them, and I think it's time that they came out now.
Jimmy Hayes was interviewed by Brannon Wiles
Copyright 1995, The Contemporary A Cappella Society of America - Italy - italy@casa.org