26050. cllrdr - July 14, 1999 -
1:34 PM PT
I think it was either Paddy Chayevsky or Oscar Levant who said
"The moral of 'Gentlemen's Agreement' is be nice to Jews,
because they may turn out to be Gentiles."
cigarlaw: According to your rules one of my all-time favorites,
"Point Blank," qualifies. I'm not much of a Ford fan,
but I've always adored "Seven Women" -- a guy flick if
there ever was one, with Anne Bancroft in the John Wayne part.
Are you familiar with Peckinpah's "Bring Me the Head of
Alfredo Garcia"? Truly baroque.
26051. benear - July 14, 1999 -
2:39 PM PT
MsIT, I am still trying to track down a copy of GA. I did find
the other two and look forward to this discussion.
26052. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
3:45 PM PT
26056. cllrdr - July 14, 1999 -
4:33 PM PT
Garfield is our greatest actor. See the most important film he
ever appeared in, "Force of Evil" -- directed by
celebrated non-stoolie (and personal "role model")
Abraham Polonsky.
If Garfield had only known when he made GA how Gadge would sell
him down the river only a few short years later.
Or as a wise old queen once said "Some people are just shits,
darling."
26057. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 7:23 PM PT
Calgal
"As unpleasant as it is to watch the cracks show in Kathy,she's
the pivotal character and it is essential that she not appear too
obvious, too manipulative."
Agreed, and McGuire captures her perfectly. Kathy undergoes a
terrible revelation. When she first meets Phil, she's sure of
herself, sure of her compassion, and her own lack of prejudice.
Yet she slowly discovers just how unwilling she is to go the full
distance in fighting for equality and fairness for Jews.
Ultimately driven to the point where she "sees" herself
not as a fighter for equality, but as one of the very people who
contributes to the perpetuation of anti-semitism.
McGuire really does play this out well. Even in the scene with
Garfield (one of my very favorite in the film), one doesn't know
how she'll resolve her own contradictions, if she will step up to
the hard part of fighting discrimination.
The scene with Garfield is also one of the most enduring of the
film. It's here that one can see the real essence of the story.
Each person, taking responsibility for what occurs around them
and not contributing, even in silence, to discrimination and
injustice. I thought this scene was one of the best written
pieces in the film because it so completely captures what happens
in the real world.
"The copout of the movie, of course, is that all this brave
girl has to do in order to get Gregory Peck is let Dave and his
family live in her house."
And here's where I disagree with you, because I don't see this as
a copout, but as part of what makes this whole scene work. The
notion that this sort of discrimination can be fought at the
individual level, that the world doesn't change unless each
person does something themselves. I thought it a very positive
message, the notion that ending discrimination begins with
individual acts of commitment to higher standards of behavior.
26058. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 7:34 PM PT
"The Ms mentions his relationship with his mother; I agree
with all her comments. However, just as well portrayed and *incredibly*
rare is the relationship between Peck and his son, played by Dean
Stockwell in the first of his three career phases."
Yes, the scenes between Peck and Stockwell were very good, and
powerful. My favorite were the bathroom scene and the kitchen
scene after the mother has her first attack. Peck asking his son
to step up to taking care of himself, helping him take care of
the mother, was simply great parenting.
In fact, as I think about the intergenerational relationships
portrayed in that family, I'm awed by how Kazan captures such
deep, respectful and amazingly healthy interactions between these
three individuals. One can clearly see the man the boy is
destined to be because of Pecks parenting. And one can clearly
see how Peck got to be the man he became by observing his
relationship with his own mother. At a time when pop psychology
regarding "healthy" family dynamics were not even
percolating, Kazan manages to portray the kind of relationships
between kids and parents that brings out the best in them.
Talk about raising kids to become healthy, well-adjusted,
productive adults, that family was pristine.
26059. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
7:38 PM PT
"The notion that this sort of discrimination can be fought
at the individual level, that the world doesn't change unless
each person does something themselves. I thought it a very
positive message, the notion that ending discrimination begins
with individual acts of commitment to higher standards of
behavior."
Oh, agreed. You missed the target of outrage. She did the right
thing. But it wasn't enough to get the guy. In the Ideal CalGal
Universe, Kathy should have let Dave live in her house and Phil
still marries the chic and far braver fashion editor, Celeste.
I am just cranky because it's just SO UNFAIR that Celeste is the
cooler chick and should get the great guy. And instead, McGuire
does this one thing and Greg comes running back. ARGGGGGHHH.
I object on feminist grounds, and I'm being silly--I thought it
was clear, but it might not have been. Quite frankly, I take it
personally. There are so many people for whom the world is an
easy place--if you remember, Kathy explains how life was tough
until Uncle John came in and gave them all money, and then she
"didn't have to be envious any more". Well, would that
we were all so lucky.
Whereas Celeste's character works, supports herself, is kind,
easy to get along with, and sees naturally what McGuire has to
have her nose shoved in.
Hell, that she doesn't get the guy is STILL the way things work (in
movies and, alas, in real life). But I don't have to like it. It
is a small unfairness, and it doesn't really ruin the movie. It
just sticks out to me as a glaring statement about women, men,
and the tough times that certain types of women have that no one
even comments on the discrepancy. (You did, of course. I'm just
bitching in general.)
26060. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
7:40 PM PT
Yes, I forgot to mention the cooking scene. The look of
trepidation followed by triumph on Stockwell's face when he
cracks that egg and sees it sizzle. Wonderful.
"At a time when pop psychology regarding "healthy"
family dynamics were not even percolating, Kazan manages to
portray the kind of relationships between kids and parents that
brings out the best in them. "
Yes, yes, yes. In fact, I meant to say exactly that and FORGOT to.
26061. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 7:56 PM PT
Calgal
Regarding the possibility of Holms getting the guy; I just don't
think that was a possibility given the beliefs about working
women at the time. The kind of character Holms portrayed was a
smart, independent, compassionate, caring professional woman. If
she'd gotten Peck in the end, it would have been a major slap in
the face to all the Kathy's of the world who lived in the
restricted female world of the times. She would have been a true
equal in Pecks life, and while Holms deserved the man, for her to
get him would suggest that men preferred her "type" to
the Kathy type. I don't think that was even a remote possibility,
unless the guy was an underdog too, which Peck clearly was not.
26062. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
8:02 PM PT
Ms,
I agree completely.
I jes don' LIKE it.
My whine about the copout was not serious. In fact, it's a
compliment to the movie that it holds up so well that this is all
I see to bitch about.
26066. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 8:18 PM PT
"...and was madly in love with Peck, of course - a true,
tall, principled gorgeous man."
Well, personally, I'm still madly in love with his film image.
The man is worth drooling over, and even by today's standards,
was one spectacular male speciman.
26067. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
8:22 PM PT
Quite true. Peck is simply stunningly gorgeous.
26068. conniemack - July 14,
1999 - 8:29 PM PT
Didn't even mention The Great Dictator since it was Too Obvious,
in a way; and satire, definitely.
The thing is - here's the thing - a good heartfilm has a
downtrodden 'little guy' - one going against the odds - and
sometimes, these could be construed as 'issue' films.
I truly think one of the best anti-racist films The Searchers.
John Wayne's character was So Fn Angry and So Fn Racist and So Fn
Sure. And then....
26069. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 8:30 PM PT
Talk about deadly, I know this is jumping the gun, but the last
scene in Roman Holiday, where Peck walks down that corridor,
hands in pocket, with that long-legged, lanky stride, is simply
burned in my brain for all eternity.
Always gets me hot. Always.
26071. CalGal - July 14, 1999 -
8:37 PM PT
...
Actually, I think any Peck kissing scene is awesome.
26074. MsIvoryTower - July 14,
1999 - 8:49 PM PT
Well, that first kiss with McGuire in GA certainly qualifies as
awesome.
26080. Raskolnikov - July 15,
1999 - 7:54 AM PT
Gentleman's Agreement: Blech!
Its a two hour long sermon on an issue that no sane person
disagrees with. I see it as only marginally more relevant than a
movie which spends its length arguing that "Irish are people
too!"
Peck is given little too work with. He basically acts indignant
through most of the movie, and his character is already on the
side of justice from the beginning, so he really doesn't grow.
Character growth is left pretty much solely to one supporting
character - Peck's wife.
And, God, those interminable speeches!
It does have value in the supporting performances, and as a
documentary describing the extent of anti-semitism in the US, but
otherwise, it is a dated message movie. One of Oscar's biggest
travesties.
"Crossfire" came out the same year, and is a better
film in every way, about a similar topic. "Crossfire"
actually has a strong narrative, a murder mystery, and has much
better lead performances, by Robert Mitchum and particularly
Robert Ryan.
And it isn't dated. While the murder motive of anti-semitism is
less relevant, there is a very strong subtext (left over from the
book), that homophobia was part of the murder motive as well.
Detective Robert Ryan does speechify toward the end, but it is
mercifully shorter than any of the many lectures in "Gentleman's
Agreement".
Cellar: just curious - does your dislike of Kazan's stool pigeon
act spill over to Edward Dmytrk's as well?
The
26081. cllrdr - July 15, 1999 -
7:57 AM PT
You bet it does, Rask. But Abraham Polonsky had the last word.
When he was on the Universal lot to do "Willie Boy,"
Dmytrk rushed up all smiles and yelled "Hey Abe!" to
which Abe yelled back "Fuck You!"
26082. Raskolnikov - July 15,
1999 - 8:05 AM PT
I think I saw that, paraphrased a bit more delicately, in "Hollywood
on Trial", the documentary AMC shows periodically. Dmytryk
still acted a little hurt by it.
26083. cllrdr - July 15, 1999 -
8:30 AM PT
Aw gee, he was hurt? Awwwwwww. Too bad.
26084. CalGal - July 15, 1999 -
9:51 AM PT
....
Rask--as you know, we disagree. But quite frankly, I didn't
notice all that many speeches. And I think the relationships in
that movie are superb. Haven't seen Crossfire in a very long time;
I'm going to watch it again.
26085. cllrdr - July 15, 1999 -
9:53 AM PT
I think it's high time "Crossfire" was remade in a
version that matched its source material, "The Brick Foxhole"
by Richard Brooks.
26089. MsIvoryTower - July 15,
1999 - 10:29 AM PT
Rask
Couldn't disagree more with your perspective on Gentleman's
Agreement.
First, Peck does grow as a character. He starts out bored by this
topic, not sure he has anything to add to it. Clearly, he's not
passionate at this point, he's sort of in the Kathy camp, knows
how he feels, has a close personal friend who's a Jew, but doesn't
see this social injustice beyond just another in a long line of
issues.
Then he becomes a Jew, and instantly he begins to be surprised,
to find out just what discrimination means on an intimate and
personal level. He's out of the righteous abstract now and into a
world he's never been exposed to. He *feels* the discrimination
as if his eyes have just been opened.
Yes, Kathy goes through a self realization and hers is the one
that counters his own. Where he starts out not wanting to tell
anyone because of the integrity of the story, he reaches a place
where to tell reveals itself for the copout it is, it's his
safety net and he increasingly becomes more and more reluctant to
use it. He also becomes aware of bigotry coming from Jews himself,
something one gathers he hadn't noticed before, because he wasn't
an insider before.
I'd say there's plenty of growth in his character, and in the way
he comes to understand anti-semitism, a sort of awakening.
Second, I don't find the message trite or dated at all,
particularly if one moves beyond the surface level of anti-semitism.
This is a story, mainly, about covert discrimination. Not the
kind that's easy to fight, like being barred from a restaurant,
although that's jarring as well, and the film does have some of
that, but it's mostly about how discrimination is perpetuated by
the very people who say they're against it.
26091. MsIvoryTower - July 15,
1999 - 10:31 AM PT
The most telling line in the movie to me was when Peck says that
the real story was how good people, people of good conscious, end
up facilitating and even encouraging racism/discrimination to
continue. Why? Because they *don't* stand up and challenge those
who perpetuate the ugly little beliefs about the character of
those discriminated against.
This is as much alive today as it was at the time of this film. I
deal with this in my work. I watch it among people, and living in
the South, I hear these same kinds of jokes about those "others",
while people of good conscious stand around and look
uncomfortable.
The fact that my 11 year old daughter sat and watched this film,
entralled and captivated, suggests this isn't an old or dated
movie at all. She didn't want to watch it, btw, she whined about
it, but then, at the end, she said to me "I loved this movie".
She woke up the next morning talking about it, and again stated
she loved it.
This is a powerful movie, with beautiful relationships developed
between strong, honorable people. And I agree with my daughter, I
loved this film.
26092. MsIvoryTower - July 15,
1999 - 10:33 AM PT
that's
good conscience.
26094. CalGal - July 15, 1999 -
10:42 AM PT
I agree with the Ms--the *best*, least dated, aspect of GA is
that it doesn't deal with blatant prejudice, but the subtle,
"genteel" variety. As I mentioned earlier, I also think
this makes it an excellent movie for kids (Spawn also enjoyed it).
It's easy for most kids to identify skinheads and synagogue
burnings and the Rodney King video as "bad". It's more
difficult for them to realize that the sly joke that just relies
a bit on racial stereotyping can also do damage--or to realize
that their friend's mom, who crosses the street because she's
scared of a black kid, might be overreacting.
I find GA to be a very good movie for addressing those types of
issues. It is not a perfect movie by any means, but given that it
is 50 years old I think it holds up very well.
Besides, quite outside of its "issue" content, it holds
an extraordinary portrayal of relationships that is utterly
ageless and worth a watch on those merits alone.
26095. Raskolnikov - July 15,
1999 - 10:42 AM PT
Peck moves quickly from boredom to being indignant, and he stays
there for the rest of the film. The film was much better when it
*showed* the effects of discrimination than it was when they *talked*
about them. Unfortunately, there is too much of the latter. I can
see an 11 year old being captivated by it. Kids often need to
have the point of a movie spelled out clearly, but I personally
don't, and find myself rolling my eyes or staring at my watch
once characters start preaching to the choir with a rather wooden
sermon.
Again, Crossfire, or even To Kill a Mockingbird, does it a hell
of a lot better. Both films are more effective in conveying the
problems of racism, and the need for action on the part of the
majority who normally just stand by, and both films are also much
better films, since there is considerably more dramatic tension
than "will Peck's girlfriend realize she is perpetuating
discrimination?"
The lack of drama is Gentleman's Agreement's biggest flaw. Even
the potentially powerful scene of the kid getting harrassed is
never shown, only talked about. (I think. its been awhile, and I
have to admit that my attention drifted elsewhere very frequently
during this film).
26096. CalGal - July 15, 1999 -
10:50 AM PT
Actually, I disagree completely about TKAM (and I hereby will
incur the Ms' wrath):
I think TKAM ages very badly on several levels. It is a
beautifully made, beautifully acted story, but I see very little
relevance to it in today's society. Besides, Peck's character was
a terrible lawyer.
