From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Humble Request Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:20:59 Message Number 16901 Heheh...thanks for the try! Re galactic revolution, I got one anwer of 250 million years at Earth's distance from the galactic center. Sounds about right to me :)  =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:22:24 Message Number 16902 OK, lemme know within, oh, say, a week, ok? Thanx.... I'm already "packing" for it - got some pesqueniacs....(don't ask)... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Cooking/housewk Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:25:16 Message Number 16903 ok, ok, I asked what you _like_ to do, (re work - yeah, so few of us like to do it)...but raising cackatiels, that sounds interesting: how do you get them to mate?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:26:20 Message Number 16904 Heheh....ok, let's move on: how 'bout the question, "If I were President, here's what I'd do about".... National Debt Erosion of Freedoms [add yer own here] =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: OPUS Subject: Uhh.. Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:13:18 Message Number 16905 Green is green because someone told you it was green. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:24:50 Message Number 16906 >...there ARE better things than a good cigarette... T>Like the ability to breathe. AMEN! >but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh? T>No. Kissing a smoker is like liking an ashtray. AGAIN! Well spoken T>...isn't "Good Cigarette" an oxymoron? Yep. Especially to a non-smoker. NO, Scott...this isn't aimed at you! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:28:31 Message Number 16907 >Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? T>Um...Kim Basinger? Ah, shit! I was hoping that you could introduce us! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:29:39 Message Number 16908 >...if we have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See >Colors Differently People? T>Color-blind people [long winded unneeded explanation for the sole T>purpose of sounding intelligent]. If part of the system doesn't work, T>[implied, 'you poor ignorant moron,'] you get color blindness or some T>other visual defect. AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently? I think the question was valid, don't you? Hmmm. Kinda hard on him, eh? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:34:50 Message Number 16909 DF>If someone wants to commit suicide through nicotine, let them. Agreed. DF>If they think the feeling they get from smoking is worth the loss of DF>thier lungs, they have every right. Again, fine. Just keep it out of *my* lungs. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RUFUS Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:39:33 Message Number 16910 R>Sure, Sarasota is small, No, Sarasota is HUGE! I just went home on a vacation for a week to my home province of Erie County, PA. Very very very smalltown. Waterford: Miles and mile of back road with a farmhouse here and there. All the businesses huddle around mainstreet like a bunch of bums at a burn barrel in New York in the middle of winter. Worse: For example, for fun people sit around in thier front yards, watching cars go past. For a variant on that entertainment, they count what types of cars there are-- Fords, Chryslers, Chevys. Sarasota is Huge. Bradenton is Large. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:46:30 Message Number 16911 T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray. S>Um, not to another smoker. T>Yeah, if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste T>things, don't you? Heh heh. Heh, heh. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Random chatter Date & Time: 05/19/91 14:49:56 Message Number 16912 DF>What do y'all think computers will be like in twenty years? I dunno, lemme ask it then. By the way, it's "you'uns". =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: THE BEST LEGS Subject: Handle Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:18 Message Number 16913 How did you get a handle like that? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: ALL Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:03:50 Message Number 16914 (evil grin.) I got it. (Grin widens. Evil laugh.) I paid an awful lot of money for it, but I got it. I mortaged my soul to my roommate for it. (Quick look to both sides. Maniacidal laugh.) And it's gonna give me 385 HP to start! What is it? 440 SIXPACK! MOHAHAHAHAHHA! Mustangs beware....heheheheheheh. =========== From: HACMAN To: TURTLE Subject: Marriage & stuf Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:42:27 Message Number 16915 >You certainly are. That doesn't happen very often... . What doesn't happen oftern...that I agrree with you or I'm in a minority? =========== From: HACMAN To: SAAVIK Subject: SERIOUS PROBLEM Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:49:59 Message Number 16916 >True friends dont end a relationship without facing you about it... . You're right, so now I don't know for sure whether I want to go see him or not. My first reaction is to say to h*ll with him. I suppose I will not. He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead horse? =========== From: HACMAN To: SAAVIK Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:53:04 Message Number 16917 S> A good steak bone wont hurt a dog...also a ham bone... my dog loves them... . Won't any /real/ bone splinter? If so, wont that hurt'm or is the dogs digestive system able to handle them ok? =========== From: HACMAN To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 15:55:37 Message Number 16918 Hey...congrats on quitting smoking. I just quit, and I've been smoking since I was 15 years old. (I'm 28 now). I tend to agree with you that it might be a psychological addiction. That is what it was for me. So far, I havent smoked in 5 weeks. Dropped it cold turkey. And to date, I've had no /real/ withdrawal symtoms. Oh yeah, I've wanted one once in a while, but not so I *HAD* to have one. Of course I dont know what you smoked, but I was somewhat health consious(sp?) the last 10 yrs. (Kinda a contradiction in terms...health consious and smoking huh) I used to smoke the fads...Marlboro, Winston, Kool, Salem, but the last 10 yrs, I've smoked Carlton..the lowest of the low in tar and nicotine. That probably had something to do with my nicotine dependance..or lack of it. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! Burney =========== From: HACMAN To: TURTLE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:15:16 Message Number 16919 Jesus loves *you* too! =========== From: HACMAN To: ALL Subject: stuff Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:20:27 Message Number 16920 Hey everybody. My new bbs, YE OLDE ENGLISH DEN is now \o124hrs\o0. (do you have mci here or not) Cone on down for a visit. Running at up to the amazing speed of 1200 baud. (Whatcha complain'n 'bout...you cant read that fast anywayz) The tele number is 493-8401. See ya there. Burney ps: Handles allowed too =========== From: RAT To: THE BEST LEGS Subject: legs Date & Time: 05/19/91 16:41:36 Message Number 16922 If your legs are so hot, why don't you stop by a rat's place and show them to a rat? =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: MAXIMILION Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:01:35 Message Number 16923 >He is "Qualified" to run the country under those two and only those >two requirements. Well, I wouldn't say that he's qualified under only those two requirements. He did manage to get elected to the U.S. Senate, ya know. He's reasonably apt as a campaigner. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:04:11 Message Number 16924 >Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain... Hate to say this, but there are mental bullies, as well. Verbal abuse is still abuse, even though it leaves no scars. But I agree with your sentiment. Anyone who thinks that pushing people or countries around makes the rest of us hold them in high regard does NOT face reality. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:06:46 Message Number 16925 Those tunes sound like they should bring the desired effect. Hmmm... and you brought your weasel along? If you did that right, you should have experienced something that makes satori feel like a five-second backscritch. Or, more bluntly, something that makes an orgasm feel like a quick kiss from your grandmother. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:10:52 Message Number 16926 Don't worry. Even if you're being words and obfuscative, I get your drift. I was about to argue your points, when I realized something: It sounds like all we're doing is arguing over the definition of "correct." You seem to use "correct" and "useful" as synonyms: something is "correct" when it can be demonstrated -- even when the demonstration must have certain limits (including limits of accuracy!) I tend to use the word "useful" there. Of COURSE any "useful" theory is true for only particular contexts, and of COURSE "useful" is a subjective term. Newton's laws only work for particular contexts, and they might not be useful for, say, someone piloting a spaceship (or just building a T.V.) That's the reason I use the term "useful." Do you have a counterproposal for a term to mean: "Verifiably correct in all situations; universally provable"? (Personally, I believe any rule like that must be fictional.) For the time being, I use the term "correct" for it -- except in mathematics, where I'd use the term "assumed" or "proven." //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:22:33 Message Number 16927 Any weekend after the next would be fine with me, for the Picnick. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:26:03 Message Number 16928 First of all (and you may disagree with this), I classify ethics as a part of religion. You might think that religion supplies the power to ethics ("if you're not nice to your neighbor, you'll go to Hades..." etc.) and you might point out that there are people with no religion who act ethically, but I still claim it as a part of religion. And it has consequences which are directly observable consequences. I believe the way one view God can have a very directly observable consequence on your life. If you believe there is no God and no punishment for sins after life, you will act differently than one who believes in both. If you believe God can be bribed to forget sins, you will act differently than one who does not believe this. I say: if you believe there exists a God, and if you believe God is watching your life, and if you believe God will take action on you depending on what you do in your life, you will act differently. You're right: a mere belief in the axiom "There is a God" or the axiom "There is no God" doesn't mean a thing. Just as there's no branch of mathematics with just one axiom, there's no religion that believes only that. The next message will address your second point. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Relig & Logic 2 Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:41:47 Message Number 16929 Some religions, including Christian Science, disbelieve in pain. Some of their members would NOT agree that they perceived pain when you threw the brick at them. (Fortunately, I'm not one of them.) Going on to mathematics, Hamiltonian algebra does NOT agree that 1 + 2 = 2 + 1. Only a "shared world view" comprised of assumptions jointly made by two (or more) people makes it possible to communicate. If something is not repeatable, does that make it ficticious? If something isn't verifiable, does that make it ficticious? I doubt both of those questions. (But I also very strongly doubt anyone who uses those questions as a lazy way out to explain a phenomenon.) To tie in with the conversation I'm having with Chaz, the belieft that the universe is real is an extremely useful proposition. But not everyone shares it. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE BEST LEGS Subject: alias Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:51:34 Message Number 16930 Hmmm... you'd better change your alias, or you'll be required at the next RufusCon to prove it's true! //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:53:48 Message Number 16931 Ya know, I must be one of the few people who has never seen Elvis. ("When in doubt, it's Elvis!") The False Prophet in me assures me that he's alive, has lost a hundred pounds, and is doing miracles everywhere. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/20/91 13:56:14 Message Number 16932 The news on the radio is very sketchy, all right -- but for me, it's convenient. I drive way too much. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:01:50 Message Number 16933 "If I were President, I'd..." be sure to have the best advisors. (If it were possible, I'd get George Bush as Sec. of State. The man knows nothing about internal affairs, but he knows the world REAL well. But I'd keep him far from the military.) National Debt? Cut one HELL of a lot of the loopholes from taxes, and simplify the taxes even more... maybe even just a simple percentage of what you make. (Companies get a certain percent; individuals get a certain percent.) (With one exception: there must be a lower limit to who gets taxed.) The two groups who will grumble and complain the most are the rich and the accountants. Erosion of freedoms? Heh, heh... I'd say that everyone by law, everyone must exercise their freedoms at least once a week, or they're thrown in jail. More seriously, I had felt that it was the Supreme Court who had most of the cause of the erosion of freedoms, and that Congress had been waffling about creating new laws. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/20/91 14:09:29 Message Number 16934 >Just keep it [cigarette smoke] out of *my* lungs. Sounds fair to me. Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms, while we don't suffer from second-hand smoke? //Dragonfly// =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:13:56 Message Number 16935 Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:20:17 Message Number 16936 Some _very_ good points. I think there's an underlying continuum we're both referring to, and it relates to the basic question "How to we 'know' something"... so, for instance, we may use the word "useful" or "correct" or "true" to describe a point on that continuum, but you're position and mine may be some distance apart. I use "know" or "true" to describe something such as "the world is (more or less) round", being aware that some physicist may do some study of alternate realities to "prove" that the earth is a torus, but in an additional dimension which we don't directly perceive...and at that point I would have to say that what I thought I knew, I didn't! Or I may feel that it is "useful" to believe that the earth is more or less round, etc... So though I use "useful" much as "true" (or at least as a subset of "true"), I still may find some items useful/true which you don't. And so the upshot may well be that as interesting as this discussion is, it may well lead nowhere! Which is ok, too. After all, I think it is useful/true that we all are born and we all die and the only question is what to do in between, and discussions sure seem "usefule" to me!! :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:27:54 Message Number 16937 OK, how about June 7th (if that's a Saturday)...?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:29:06 Message Number 16938 Interesting: in other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions... I'll buy that.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: If I were... Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:31:42 Message Number 16939 Whew, I can't disagree with any of those approaches. Though I'd also focus on a few of my pet peeves: 1 - No death penalty, except for Seventh Day Adventists (jes' kidding) 2 - All commercial items to be sold must have the full price shown: NOT the price minus tax, shipping, preparation, etc!!!! 3 - All bullets must be make of silly putty 4 - Universal full, free health care 5 - Push for UN armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnel )make that U.N. Armed Force, not un-armed force, tho that's an )interesting possibility ----------And Yours???---------- =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/20/91 17:37:26 Message Number 16940 Or improve air circulation: floor vents to blow it in, ceiling vents to take it out and filter it.... =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:11:40 Message Number 16941 >Invent cigarettes that have no second hand smoke. Wasn't that tried once? And didn't they have problems with getting FDA approval, or something like that? Great idea, though... if you can get the smokers to try them. (And make sure the taste is OK.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:17:55 Message Number 16942 (Ain't it amazing what a simple comment like "Religious discussions, by their very nature, cannot be 'intelligent' or 'logical'" can lead off to?) Now that we have an idea of what we mean by "useful" versus "true," (and an idea of what something means to be 'proven'), what about tying it into religion. Simply put: How 'useful' is religion? (There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.) Do religious people live 'better' than non-religious people. (Watch out for that word 'better'...) And, is one particular religion more 'useful' than any others? I'm going to try to keep from preaching at anyone who jumps in on that topic. (If I do, PREACH BACK!) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:26:18 Message Number 16943 June 7th -- or the nearest Saturday to there -- sounds great to me! I'll be there! //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:27:16 Message Number 16944 >In other words, your beliefs (help) direct your actions... I'll buy >that.... Thanks. It was a bit verbose, no? A simplified version: You will do whatever actions you believe will make God act better toward you. If you don't believe in God, the statement holds (though vacuously.) If you believe in God, but don't believe actions affect God, the state- ment still holds. If you believe actions affect God, you'll do them. And that is how religion affects the real world. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: If I were... Date & Time: 05/20/91 21:35:03 Message Number 16945 Interesting ideas. Mind if I debate them? >1. No death penalty. No comment; I'm ambivalent about this topic. >2. All commercial items must have the full price shown... Amen! Although I'd even more rather have marked on the package the taxes broken down: the net price, PLUS all of the 'hidden' taxes clearly marked on the package. >3. All bullets must be made of silly putty. No. Absolutely not. It would be very easy to smuggle in guns and ammunition: the police would be at the mercy of the international crime rings. >4. Universal full, free health care. How are you going to pay for that? And how are you going to get high-quality doctors to go for that? TANSTAAFL, friend... and there's no such thing as free health care. The solution to high-costing health care? Simple. Why is health care expensive? One of the biggest reasons is insurance. Why is insurance so expensive? People can sue doctors for any amount -- and get it. Set a limit to the amount people can sue for doctor's mistakes. >5. Push for U.N. armed force, and reduce ours to 1/10th the personnell. Interesting. Again, who pays for it? //Dragonfly// =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/20/91 23:07:11 Message Number 16946 DF>Verbal abuse is still abuse, though it does not leave any scars. I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars. =========== From: CRYSTAL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Random chatter Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:10:12 Message Number 16947 I dunno, lemme ask it then. By the way, it's "you'uns". Look at that would ya. He goes to PA for one week and comes back typing like I talk. * CRYSTAL * =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:52:49 Message Number 16948 >They'd better take a good look at the third in line before they >go Quayle hunting... Unless the third in line were one the Three Stooges, I think they'd be best off shooting... =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:54:39 Message Number 16949 >...how else ya gonna keep up where Elvis really is now... Didn't you hear? He's hanging out with Jesus these days. They're both everywhere. "Hey, Elvis, man, where you wanna go for lunch today?" "Um, I dunno...let's do lunch everywhere!" =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 00:59:35 Message Number 16950 >There could be a scenario where God _proves_ him/her-self... Yeah, I suppose that's true, but so far it ain't happened, relegating religious faith out of the land of logic at least for the time being... =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:03:29 Message Number 16951 >Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? T>Um...Kim Basinger? TS>Ah, shit! I was hoping that you could introduce us! Well...um, do you suppose if we invite her to RufusCon III? Speaking of which, this is the first warning: RufusCon III is coming up in the near future, possibly as early as next month. Anyone who's got suggestions or absolute no's for dates should perhaps think about speaking up now... =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:05:46 Message Number 16952 >AH, you mean, like a person who sees color differently? In a manner of speaking. Actually, I meant a person who doesn't see all the colors a normal person does, which isn't really the same thing. >Kinda hard on him, eh? No. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:07:59 Message Number 16953 >440 SIXPACK! Dude! I wanna go for a ride... >Mustangs beware.... Heh, heh. =========== From: TURTLE To: HACMAN Subject: Marriage & stuf Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:09:07 Message Number 16954 What doesn't happen oftern [sic]...? People don't agree with me about anything involving interpersonal relationships or politics very often. =========== From: TURTLE To: HACMAN Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:10:25 Message Number 16955 >Jesus loves *you* too! No, not really, but he says I have a great personality. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Relig & Logic 2 Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:12:23 Message Number 16956 I'll be blunt: I'm beginning to get somewhat tired of this discussion. Yes, you're right: if you believe in God it can have an effect on your behavior. That is not what I was talking about. The point I was trying to make is this: You cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. There are no observable phenomena which go on in the real world which must be attributable to God. There are no physical, direct consequences which are a result of the existance or lack thereof of God. Belief in Go is an act of faith which is quantifiably different from belief in a mathmatical axiom. If you wish to continue to believe that faith in God is tatamount to belief that a hammer will fall when dropped or that one plus one is two, that's fine, but I will point out that if it were truly that simple there would not be such a widespread lack of consensus on the issue. So, just to flog this dead horse one more time, I will say again: There is a quantifiable difference between a logical dis- cussion and a religious one. The former will always, ALWAYS contain some leap of faith somewhere that is different in kind from any similar so- called leap of faith in a non-religious discussion. As to your second point: Religions generally include ethics as part of their code, but ethics do not derive exclusively from and do not depend on religion. Ethics can exist without religion. Therefore, religion is not the source of ethics. Point dismissed. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:19:33 Message Number 16957 >Any ideas on how we can keep smoker's freedoms... What, pray tell, does the phrase "smoker's freedoms" mean? Surely you aren't suggesting that people have the /right/ to smoke...or even the /right/ to smoke tobacco products only. I don't recall that being anywhere in the jurisdiction of any of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution or anywhere else, and it's a certainty that people don't have the /right/ to smoke non-tobacco substances. The fact that society condones it does not mean it's a "right." I don't have the "right" to dump poison into the air through a smaokestack; do you suggest I have the right to dump poison into the air through a rolled- up paper tube? If any "freedoms" are at stake here, they're freedoms connected with the right to privacy, which doesn't extend to public places (and that argument can easily be applied to a host of drugs besides tobacco, too...)! =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:23:33 Message Number 16958 >Invent cigarettes that have no second-hand smoke. They did. They aren't very profitable. We mustn't let little things like health risks to non-smokers interfere with profits, doncha know. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:25:16 Message Number 16959 >Wasn't [smokeless cigarettes] tried once? Yes. By Phillip Morris. >And didn't they have problems with getting FDA approval...? No. The FDA has no jurisdiction whatsoever to regulate tobacco products. In fact, it is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the FDA's charter that it has no jurisdiction to regulate tobacco products. Regulation is performed solely by the ATF (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms). Philip Morris attempted to market their smokeless cigarettes in several markets. They were a dismal commercial flop. Too damn expensive to produce. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 01:27:48 Message Number 16960 >(There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'.) No shit. That's what I've been trying to say. That's why religious arguments are not logical, even if they are couched in logical terms anmd even if they do borrow the techniques of logic. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:10:41 Message Number 16961 DF>Verbal abuse.... does not leave any scars. KO>I disagree with you; verbal abuse /can/ leave scars. ' Touche. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CRYSTAL Subject: You'uns Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:12:24 Message Number 16962 All you Nahtherners kin't tahk straight. Sheeeeesh! (I've never heard ya say "you'uns," Crystal.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:16:12 Message Number 16963 RufusCon III, next month? Is anyone interested in getting, say, buttons made for it? (I believe Watts has a button-maker.) Or maybe T-shirts? (A bit expensive, but possible.) Then again, we could invite Maggie de Alercon, and call it the MaggiCon '91. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:20:12 Message Number 16964 Previously in the discussion, we had agreed that people have the 'right' to commit a slow suicide through nicotine. This 'right' has not been written up in either the U. S. Constitution, the Florida Constitution, the New College Constitution, or the Laws of the Kingdom of Trimaris. (It should show up in the book of the Aardvark.) I agree with you, though. The 'right' to commit suicide is not the right to subject others to the same poison. Fair enough? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 11:25:55 Message Number 16965 D U D E ! ! ! Wake up and smell the tofu! N O, N O, N O! ! ! DF> There's no way to show most religions to be 'true'. Dude! I had just gotten into a discussion with Chaz trying to define 'true' as 'verifiably correct.' Because something is NOT verifiable, that does NOT make it illogical to believe. We've gone through this a number of times. Religious arguments ARE 'logical' -- you have assumptions, and conclusions derived from the assumptions. Whether or not the assumptions are reasonable is another question entirely. Not once have I ever said that religion was verifiable. I have stated that religion does make a difference in people's lives. I have stated that it is not a contradiction to believe in God. However, I have not said (except in jest) that anyone knows undeniably that God exists. //Dragonfly// =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:27:58 Message Number 16966 Well, if you stop the smoke at it's source, then you don't have to worry about large, expensive air filtration systems. Besides, on the way out the smoke could still get into my lungs. Granted, not much or enough to make a difference, but it's the principal of the thing... am I rambling again? Oh, never mind...say did I mention.... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:29:42 Message Number 16967 Waitaminute...they didn't have FDA approval? And ordinary cigarettes DO? Don't tell me that the FDA won't approve a cigarette which is bad for you...they already have! And Furthermore--a cigarette which creates no second hand smoke could only be a good thing! And so what if it isn't good for the smoker's health -- the stupid things aren't any good for your health to start with! And getting the smokers to try them would be easy...as long as you outlawed all the other types. As for taste--cigarette smokers suffer from lack thereof anyway. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/21/91 15:35:44 Message Number 16968 TS>440 SIXPACK! T>Dude! I wanna go for a ride... You sure? I'm drivin... =========== From: RUFUS To: SAAVIK Subject: Birth Control Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:21:44 Message Number 16969 >(WHACK!!!> Hehe, nice to "meat" you, Rufus.... Aaarrgghh.... =========== From: RUFUS To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:26:21 Message Number 16970 >No, Sarasota is HUGE! Tampa is HUGE! Atlanta is just a mutant life form. I figure once you know all the streets it's time to move on. I can find my way around every part of Sarasota except for Siesta Key... =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/21/91 19:35:10 Message Number 16971 Umm...I dunno...whenever sounds cool to me. In 7 days I'll be out of high school, then I spend 5 or more years in college, then work, then retire, then die. Damn...I'm gonna be busy. Hope I have time to watch some movies. We were thinking of having some full color membership badges made just to freak people at other cons. Who's the FGOH? GOH? Artist GOH? I'm the Mandatory Guest of Honor, as usual. Will we be having an artist draw off and auction after that? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:38:14 Message Number 16972 Heheh....I think we can keep from preaching, and keep the "preachers" out of this discussion. One way I see the problem of using "useful", may well be it's non-absoluteness (yes, I know I argued its opposite before! So what!?)...what is useful to someone or to some group, may NOT be useful to others. The German Nazi movement was useful to many (I say this as a partly Jewish person who lost 10 2nd cousins in WWII) - trains ran on time, employment up, most Germans becoming well-focused on working together. It was certainly NOT useful to Jews, Catholics, Blacks, and later Allied Forces. Some medications are useful to some patients and deadly to others. Re religion, it _appears_ to be useful to some (perhaps many), but my feeling is that the further from "truth" one gets, the less useful in the intermediate to long run the idea, perception, belief becomes (to humanity in general). What blows me away is that some people still believe that religions "prove" supernatural events occur. A friend believes the universe began in 4004 BC. No use telling him about how dates are figured; he just says that "God set it up" to make it _look_ like the earth and universe are older. Whew! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Picnick: 6/7/91 Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:45:12 Message Number 16973 Great: let's go for it: but I gotta get a calendar: It may actually be June 6th! (The mind is the second thing to go.....) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:46:24 Message Number 16974 It holds together nicely (re actions affecting God). The problem is that we're dealing with those really weird creatures, human beings. They DON'T always act as their beliefs indicate they should! There are MANY God-believers who believe their actions affect God - and their own futures - and yet blithely (nice word, eh?) perform actions which will _insure_ their going straight to Hell (their belief system).. That's the problem with humans: even their beliefs don't consistently guide them.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: If I were... Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:49:48 Message Number 16975 Re health care, gotta say you're wrong. First of all, the costs of health care are NOT determined (well, less than 5%) by lawsuits. That accounts for an insignificant costs. And "good" doctors should be determined by ensuring good medical schools who will only graduate those who demonstrate appropriate competence. Look at Canada, England, many other countries: not that they don't have funding problems for health care, but the free health care system works! The real reason for escalating health care costs is the costs of modern diagnoses and treatment. NMR's are outrageously expensive. Brand name medications are incredible: I needed an antibiotic (available for at least the last 10 years), which costs $150 a month!! And no generic!! Therefore no competition!! My bro is a bigshot hospital finance person - I'll talk some more with him re costs (tho of course hospital health care is only one facet of it). BTW and only slightly related, have you ever wondered why health insurance almost invariably covers dental checkups but NEVER medical checkups?? Wouldn't one think that they would help keep longrange medical costs down by catching disease earlier?? If there were free health care, where would the "good" doctors go? Maybe some would go into research, a couple, perhaps, overseas (but they don't want to leave this country any more than you or I, even when we disagree with a variety of political/social trends).... We know that private practice of professionals is just as much based on greed as private industry - and I for one don't think medicine should be. Your comments? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 20:59:45 Message Number 16976 Yes, for that and a myriad of other reasons. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Relig & Logic 2 Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:02:11 Message Number 16977 Well put. Also put well. Well, well.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:05:10 Message Number 16978 Hehehe...not rambling...tho I'm not sure the "principle of the thing" is the issue. Air filtration is not necessarily that expensive, and there's the theoretical vs the actual (much as we don't have the right to shout "fire", etc...tho we have free speech)....I think that the bottom line is that we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well discuss more interesting topics: how 'bout it's so tough to describe the taste of chocolate? (I'm goin' for some right now!!) =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: ALL Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:13:04 Message Number 16979 Okay, I have something to ask y'all: How much do you know about mosquitos? And why do they love my room so much?` What's actually happening: About seven o'clock at night, my door is COVERED with mosquitos. They do not move unless you jar them; they just sit there. Tonight, I forgot about the mosquitoes, and left the door open. At nine tonight, saw TENS (maybe a hundred) of them, all climbing on one wall of my room, a wall near the door. The wall is covered with the same wallpaper that the rest of the room has; but THAT particular wall is the only one with mosquitoes. They haven't bothered my food. Just the one wall. (Made it really easy for me to Raid them.) Any ideas of what they're after? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:18:12 Message Number 16980 As Turtle mentioned, the FDA has no power over tobacco. That's in another agency's power. And again, as Turtle mentioned, they're unprofitable. Capitalism at work! (Won't smokers put up with the extra cost -- so they're more socially acceptable?) Outlawing should be unnecessary. As soon as smokers realize how much their friends prefer no-smoke cigarettes, they'll switch -- from peer pressure. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: RUFUS Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:21:50 Message Number 16981 >In 7 days I'll be out of high school... Congratulations! > We were thinking of having some full color membership badges made > just to freak people at other cons. >>> YES! <<< Do it. If we can, try to get Maggie as the Artist Guest of Honor. You know, I was just thinking. I was wandering through the Sarasota Main Shopping Plaza. There are three stores operational there. Ya know, if you give me a date, I could dress REAL impressively, and ask the *nice* manager if we might be able to rent one of the empty stores for a night. I guarentee it'll be REAL cheap. (They're desperate.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:27:19 Message Number 16982 > The further from "truth" one gets, the less useful in the intermediate > to long run the idea, perception, belief becomes (to humanity in > general.) (I'm not even going to ask what "truth" is. Verifiable reality?) > A friend believes the universe began in 4004 BC. Hold it right there. In his world, he has a reasonably complete, non-contradictory system. (I'll WAGER that if I hadn't thrown in this parenthetical aside, Turtle would jumpin to this discussion, demanding that I prove creationism to be true, that I explain the dinosaurs within the system, and that I counter-explain every scientific detail that points to a much older universe. All I say to that: God made it that way.) What are the faults with it? Unlike with evolutionism, one cannot make any predictions about the future. Creationism says that at one point, God created the universe very close to the way things are today. On the other hand, evolution can make a prediction: that creatures will grow better at survival with time. (Note: there is a school of thought which says that God set the wheels of life in motion, some unspecified time ago, and is now using evolution. This theory makes the same predictions as evolutionism...) Anyway, what does this have to do with our subject: "Is religion 'useful'?" Simple: religion can hurt and help scientific development. How can it help scientific development? All science assumes the universe has an order; that experiments are repeatable; and that there are a finite number of laws which if discovered would explain everything. These assumptions actually came out of Christian ideas (although, as Turtle will invariably point out, they can exist independently of religion.) > What blows me away is that some people still believe that religions > "prove" supernatural events occur. That's another topic entirely. I've never heard a convincing proof that supernatural events DON'T occur. (Continued next message.) =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:45:05 Message Number 16983 (continued from previous message) Yes, I'm skeptical of anyone who makes claims of supernatural events; but I don't utterly rule them out. I'll do my best to debunk anyone who claims, say, ESP -- but not because I don't believe it could happen. I'd do it because the vast majority of people who have claimed something like that have been fakes. Oh yes -- about the German Nazi movement. I remember in my World History course that Naziism actually helped Germany from its depression, but Fascism actually hurt Italy. Mussolini made things look better: the trains were on time for the only part of Italian history. But it didn't improve the GNP. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:50:25 Message Number 16984 Nope! They simply believe God can be bribed, later... by really LOOKING repentant at Church on Sunday. Or, they think that God's not really looking -- or that God will just allow them this "one time." Sure, there's a large number of hypocrites in Christianity. But they also figure they have (or will have) a fire escape. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Nat. Healthcare Date & Time: 05/21/91 21:54:31 Message Number 16985 My comments: I'm somewhat out of my league, here. But I'd really like to talk with some doctors, and ask them what their biggest expenses are... then see what can be done about cutting costs, BEFORE a 'national health care' would be set up. Making it nationalized will NEVER solve the problem of the expenses of health care; all it will do is make it much more difficult for there to be any real reform. Again, I'd like to know if Canada and England really have no problems paying for the national health care. Remembering that they have a MUCH reduced militia (even on a per person basis), I remember that England has a much higher tax rate than we do. (Even after the reforms of Maggie Thatcher.) You came up with one of the problems with the cost of medicine: no competition! When it's something as important as your life, there MUST be competition between companies. By the way, speak for yourself when you say you don't want to leave the country. I HAVE lived in other countries, and have no intentions of staying in this country the rest of my life. My Spanish is good, and I'm learning German... that opens up much of Europe and South America for any business. //Dragonfly// =========== From: SINDAR To: ALL Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/21/91 22:35:10 Message Number 16986 Hey all, thought I'd interupt your wonderful conversation with some of my senseless babbling. Welppers, I've come, I'm here and I'm well, I'm here....maybe, just maybe I'll move my dog house to this section of the town.....blah, must be going, gotta check out the rest of de board....talk at ye all later. Sindar =========== From: SAAVIK To: THE GRUNT Subject: Star Trek Quote Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:37:58 Message Number 16987 TG> That's "One Damn Minute Admiral." Opps. did I misquote? Ahem! Well, so you know your ST dialog... very good..... (grumble grumble) =========== From: SAAVIK To: JONBOY Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:39:32 Message Number 16988 Glad to see you back, Jonboy.... Hope you weave your way through these obvious frustrations..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Cooking/housewk Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:44:28 Message Number 16989 How do you get Cockatiels to mate????? Well, heh heh... it's kind of like this... you get two cockatiels (of obvious sex, of course) and put them in a cage together with a breeding box attached. You introduce them to each other.... Mr. Bird meet Mrs. Bird and visa versa,... if they lik (that's like) each other, they'll do the rest. Once in a while, the two birds simply will want nothing to do with each other, but most of the time, they are more than happy to cooperate. When the babies are about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks old (little fuzzy bald heade things) you take them out and handfeed them. I love being a bird mommy. At about three weeks old.... they turn into these creatures that look like they ought to be a Jim Henson creation or something... REALLY ugly. They look like a Dinosaur.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:49:35 Message Number 16990 I have NO earthly idea of what I would do about the Nat'l Debt if I were the president. On the Erosion of Freedom, I would certainly address that topic... but having never been the President before, I don't know where it would start.... there's a lot of different sides to that subject. Music, for instance.... One one hand, I feel that people should be allowed to write, produce, publish, record (and whatever other verbs I can come up with) and listen to whatever kind of music they like..... HOWEVER, as a parent... I am extremely alarmed by some of the lyrics and subject matter that Rap music (Ok, rock n roll is guilty too but Rap....geeesh) anyway, Rap music is coming out with. It is sooo graphic. I mean, my 7 year old hears these songs, then starts singing them...., in many cases, he doesn't even prounounce the words right, he doesn't even know what they mean.... and when he DOES find out... then it's this big giggle session and he'll do it just to annoy me.... "Opps, Mom. I forgot!!!!" My 3 year old sings constantly..... and she makes up the words, but some of those songs...... she'll sing the tune and hit a word like fuck and she won't even realize it... she'll say truck or something.... and I know she isn't really understanding it... but the person in the aisle way next to us at Kmart sure doesn't understand that. Um...Saavik is rambling. Yet....again. =========== From: SAAVIK To: HACMAN Subject: True Freinds Date & Time: 05/21/91 23:59:59 Message Number 16991 HM> He did not want to continue with the friendship, why beat a dead horse? Why? For you're own peace of mind, that's why.... it'll continue to bother you until you know exactly why he chose to end the friendship. =========== From: SAAVIK To: HACMAN Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:01:40 Message Number 16992 Not all "real bones" splinter. Poultry bones will (DO NOT GIVE THESE TO ANY ANIMAL) splinter when they are cooked, small porkchop bones can be easily swallowed and cause problems... but a nice big hambones will give a dog hours of enjoyment and it's very healthy for them. Ask your veteranarian... =========== From: SAAVIK To: HACMAN Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:04:18 Message Number 16993 AAAAAhhh, I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this. I cut way down, but I've gradually crept back up there. Oh, damn...... one of these days.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:23:19 Message Number 16994 Elvis is alive eh? Lost a hundred pounds, eh? Is doing miracles eh? Hmmmmm, you've got good drugs and YOU aren't sharing..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:24:18 Message Number 16995 Yes, the news on the radio is sketchy but they DO have your attention when you are in the car..... I just wish they'd adress some more international subjects and not yap about the lady that found the boa contrictor in her garden yestarday (for example)... Of course, I know that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure they are much more informative.... they also have those annoying talk shows though. =========== From: SAAVIK To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:28:45 Message Number 16996 The scars from verbal abuse simply don't show on the skin... they show on the heart and soul....... and they don't heal as well as a physical wound, and you never know when they are going to reopen and fester. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:30:38 Message Number 16997 OH? Have YOU seen Elvis too? Did he and Jesus drop by for lunch? Tell me, are they still hanging around with Jimmi.. you know, Jimmi Hendrix. EVERYTIME I open a Nat'l Enquirer, someone else has seen Elvis.. WAH! I wanna see him!!!! =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:34:32 Message Number 16998 Religion and logic.... logic and religion.... boy, there ya go again.. beating that poor dead horse to a pulp....... What you two have said sounds very intelligent..... but it's way over my head... I tried to follow what you were saying..... but I guess my attention span is shot. Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed Vulcan? =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/22/91 00:40:06 Message Number 16999 ARG! Lock that dog door....... don't let that puppy out!!!!!! Hi, Sin...... =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:00:23 Message Number 17000 I really should havestated somethwhen I retorted at you. (sorry...) Marraiges and dysfunctional families are 2 of the many places that verbal abuse can be found. An example of scwould be from long-term intimidation. An example of that would be a parent saying something like "you'll never amount to anything worthwhile." Low self-esteem can magnify the effec, even if only because thon lets it . I hope that you understand the illustration that I've given above. L8R! (if Ma bell doesn't find her wire cutters) Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:17:50 Message Number 17001 Mosquitos are attracted to light. Could it be that the one wall was well lit? Just a theory... =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SAAVIK Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/22/91 01:24:13 Message Number 17002 True.... very true. =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: TURTLE Subject: Stay..... Date & Time: 05/22/91 10:13:08 Message Number 17003 I can fly! I talked to Ma Bell this morning and worked out a payment schedule. Oooooh, it feels so good that I got a 'stay of execution'. *]:) L8R! (fer sure!) Knight Owl =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:03:56 Message Number 17004 CHAS>...we're all gonna die anyway, so we might as well discuss more C>interesting topic Fine with me... C>How about chocolate? Y'know, it's funny you mentioned that, I had a craving for some chocolat myself, today. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:06:46 Message Number 17005 DFy> Any idea what they're after? Submitted for your approval...a man with a wall that attracts mosquitos. You are now entering: The Twilight Zone. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFRY Subject: Wesley? Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:20:43 Message Number 17006 So who is supposed to write the encounter between your DenChar and The DenGuards? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: ALL Subject: And so it goes Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:27:31 Message Number 17007 The former pirate's ship first's mate sighs, and turns around to walk back to the bar. "Y'know," he says, sitting back down next to the bunnymorph, "I used to know this cute little storyboard, used to be in this place called the Wyvern's Den?" He looks up to see if she's paying attention. She is, so he continues. "It was a great place. People posted there all the time, and the thing ran like a bat outta hell. It even got transferred over to another board, eh," he looks at the ceiling as if concentrating, "it was called aLTER rEALITY. Yup. That was a nice place, too, and people still loved the storyboard, but then they got cocky, and tried to make it a national echo, and it just died." The bunny yawns, and so he decides to wrap it up. "Anyway, I just wish that it was still around. It would be nice to visit..." he lifts his glass up. "Could I have another one of these, please?" =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SINDAR Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:50:03 Message Number 17008 Welppers, welcome, glad yer here, and glad yer well, here. Go ahead and move yer dog house here. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:52:25 Message Number 17009 Okay. You're saying that people should listen (etc.) to any music people want; BUT you're saying that "children" shouldn't be able to listen to music with certain ideas. Okay: If you were President, would you try to get a law passed that forbids "children" from listening to "certain types of music"? And, if so, what would determine whether or not a child could listen to the music? Merely containing certain words? Describing certain concepts? (Just curious: What concepts? If all you said was "sex," would an child be allowed to listen to an extremely graphic song about a multiple murderer?) And what determines who is a "child"? Age? Parental consent under a certain age? If I were President, I'd keep my hands FAR from any law like that. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/22/91 12:58:22 Message Number 17010 >I gotta confession..... I'm smoking..... right as I type this. Ah, two steps forward; one step back. Keep trying to cut back, you'll make it. Then QUIT. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:02:26 Message Number 17011 > I know that there are radio stations devoted to news and I'm sure > they are much more informative.... they also have those annoying > talk shows though. I'm a debate addict. When I can't get enough of it on this board, I turn to Rush Limbaugh. The man is SO wrong on SO many issues, that I can happily yell at him on the radio for hours. (Unfortunately, he doesn't respond.) I love those talk shows, though. To each their own? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:05:33 Message Number 17012 "When in doubt... it's Elvis!" --- Slogan from a button. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:10:29 Message Number 17013 > Is there anyway to summarize this for this not so brain endowed > Vulcan? Where? I see only intelligent Vulcans around here. It's been mostly a debate about words, and semantics. The three words debated have been "logical," "true" (sometimes "correct"), and "useful." I've been defining the words in this way: Logical: Applying logic to a set of assumptions. It makes NO difference how reasonable the assumptions are, so long as good logic has been applied. My example: All Armadilloes are Green. God is an Armadillo. ------------------------------- God is Green. This is a perfectly logical sequence, although I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who either believes the assumptions or the conclusion. True (or "correct"): Able to be verified. It's a true statement that my shirt is blue, because I can verify it. It's not a true statement that, say, a pink elephant exists. That does NOT mean the same as "there does not exist a pink elephant," though -- it just means that it has not been verified that a pink elephant exists. Useful: An assumption which, though it may not be verifiable -- and, indeed, might be wrong -- still explains a portion of reality. For example, a useful assumption would be: Water boils at 100 degrees Centigrade. It's true, here in Florida, but not in Denver. (continued, next message.) =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: Page 2 Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:23:50 Message Number 17014 Now, I expect both Turtle and Chaz to jump over me when I write how I've seen their opinions: Turtle jumped into the middle of the discussion with the quote: "That's why religious discussions are not logical." (I.E. They're not verifiable, therefore they're not logical.) All I've been saying is that a religious discussion CAN be logical (i.e. it can have logic being applied to it), but the assumptions might not be verifiable. Chaz and I have been hammering out our differences of definition. He (and Turtle, I might add) seem to think "logical" means the same thing as "true." In other words, something isn't "logical" according to him, if the assumptions aren't verifiable. (One thing that surprises me: No one has tried to jump on me for saying that something wouldn't be "true" if it's not verifiable. Praise Occam for that!) -------------------------------- There's another discussion with Turtle that seems to have petered out. It was (at one point) about different moral viewpoints. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:31:50 Message Number 17015 Yeah, there's a LOT of verbal abuse in marriages and dysfunctional families. If you're interested, some really good guides to breaking the circle of verbal abuse are in the books: "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense" by Dr. Elgin. That example you gave was pretty blatant. A more subtle example of verbal abuse would be, "If you loved me, you wouldn't want to go bowling." //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:34:25 Message Number 17016 >Mosquitos are attracted to light. Nope! The wall on the outside was no better lit than any other wall around. When the mosquitoes found their way inside, the wall they were on was very near a light, yes -- but there are two other lights nearby (less as bright) which they ignored. The only thing I can think of: they were all on the wall above the sink. (Not in the sink, though.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:37:04 Message Number 17017 Jes' trying to get rid of the buggers, without using poison. That's all. When you don't leave food out, ants don't come. What am I doing to tell the mosquito brains "CHOW TIME!" -- on a wall? //Dragonfly// =========== From: THUMPER ONE To: TURTLE Subject: Warren Peace Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:47:37 Message Number 17018 Oooops! Oversight on my Part Turtle. I dropped by to Buffer the New BBS List and Saw that I'm MIA. MY Fault, I never sent you the new number. As you may or may not know, We moved to a new Phone Area, soooo here it is. Warren Peace BBS 813-922-6542 24 Hours, 3/12/24Bd Furry, Funky, And Frazzled On-Line Games, Separate Message Areas For Adults and Minors (But no "R" or "XXX" rated areas.) And a Cute, Grey Fuzzy Bunny As Sysop! NO FILE AREAS OTHER THAN TEXT FILES AND ASCII PICS. (Guess who ran out of HD Space) Give It a Call... Thank you! Thumper One =========== From: THUMPER ONE To: SAAVIK Subject: Elvis Date & Time: 05/22/91 13:56:59 Message Number 17019 S>....Elvis.. WAH! I wanna see him!!!! So Drop by the house some time, and I'll sing "Hound Dog" for you, It's hard for me to meet all the fans. Miracles are over rated. I just Humm a few bars, say "Thankyouverymuch" and Zip back into A Ronco-u-ARF- Em Dement-sion Portal Given to me by the space aliens... Thumpelvis =========== From: THUMPER ONE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:01:58 Message Number 17020 Th Dog's here too? Nifty! Just Pet himat the base of his tail and he'll Whimper for you. Oh and Try not to Excite him to much, He'll piddle all over the landscape. Hi Sindarella! :) shall we ARF a bit? Naw maybe not here, To many Watchers.... Da' Bunny =========== From: THUMPER ONE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Smokers Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:04:41 Message Number 17021 Smokers Should be strung up by their nostrils till they repent their Smoking sins to the great Armadillo Goddess. After they repent, They /MIGHT/ be permitted to rejoin this enlightened society of ours... Taking yet ANOTHER drag, Thumpy =========== From: THUMPER ONE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/22/91 14:08:14 Message Number 17022 Ok D-Fly, Lemme Test this out... All Rabbits are Fuzzy. /I/ Am a rabbit. there Fur, /I/ Am Fuzzy. that would work if not for the fact that I'm Rapidly losing my Fur. What do you think? If I Lose my Fur, will I no longer be a rabbit? Or Will I simply be a Bald Bunny? Implants! Implants! I /NEED/ Implants!!! =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:19:18 Message Number 17023 >Religious arguments A R E 'logical' - - you have assumptions, ... No, religious arguments borrow the techniques of logic and put their statements into logical terms. That's not the same thing as saying they're logical. Any argument that can be phrased as a syllogism is not necessarily 'logical' because of it. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:21:30 Message Number 17024 >You sure? I'm drivin... Positive. Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just today picked up a rebuilt transaxle for it...heh, heh... =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:23:07 Message Number 17025 >Who's the FGOH? Uh...Saavik? >GOH? Ya got me. >Artist GOH? Jimmy Chin, of course... =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relig & Logic 2 Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:27:09 Message Number 17026 Well put. Also put well. Well, I'm glad you agree with me... :) =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 16:28:12 Message Number 17027 >Any ideas of what they're after? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Sorry, I'm not sure I can really get a grasp on what motivates a mosquito...you're talking about an animal that's about as sophisticated as a windup toy, so it shouldn't be =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/22/91 20:22:26 Message Number 17039 TS>You sure? I'm drivin'... T>Positive. Ok...but I need you to sign this waiver first... T>Hey, speaking of which, my Bug will be back in action soon...just T>today picked up a rebuild transaxle for it...heh, heh... Awright! But you're too late...Steve already got himself a fulltime ride... =========== From: THE METAL HEAD To: ALL Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/22/91 21:05:01 Message Number 17040 When is the next Pentacon? =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:40:37 Message Number 17042 Yeah, I know that my examples were pretty extreme. They were the only ones that I could think of at the time. As for the 'If you love me, you wouldn't go bowling' aspect; 'd chalk that up to the immature intimidation category of verbal abuse. L8R! Knight Owl (come to think of it, what form of erbal abuse *is* mature? ) =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/22/91 23:45:17 Message Number 17043 I'd say then, that the lttle buggers were attracted to: A> The residue from the kitchen enviroment (fumes, etc. in the paper) B> the moisture in the area. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THUMPER ONE Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:39:05 Message Number 17045 I've already discovered that he likes being scratched behind the ears, and under the chin. And he gets walked hourly. Whether he wants to or not. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THUMPER ONE Subject: Smokers Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:40:54 Message Number 17046 Saavik said she wanted to quit. Jes' giving her encouraging words. Hmmm... maybe the Pavlov method will work? Wire up a box of her favorite brand o' cigarrette with, say, 10,000 volts of current and *>ZAP<* her whenever she reaches for one? Maybe after ten tries, she'll never reach for another cigarrette? Naaah. Too risky. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THUMPER ONE Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:43:44 Message Number 17047 That depends: Can you be fuzzy without having fur? Can you be furry without having fuzz? Can you be purry without having a buzz? Can you be buzzy without having a beer? Damned if I know. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:46:33 Message Number 17048 Dude, Define logic. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:47:20 Message Number 17049 What's on my door? Damn if I know... but I've found out that I'm not the only one with a similar problem. Thank the Ghods. (Though why all the mosquitoes are stopping here, at Viking, is beyond me.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 01:50:56 Message Number 17050 Fine, Turtle. PROVE, or in some way, VERIFY that the world is more than six thousand years old. Indeed, PROVE, or in some way, VERIFY that the world is more than five minutes old. Dude, you do NOT listen to my definitions. A Creationist's stance is non- contradictory, but it DOES make some strange assumptions. (I.E. That God made the universe "old," and created bones of creatures which never really existed, colloquially called the dinosaurs.) It is VERY possible for neither a statement nor its negation to be VERIFIABLE. And I have stated at least three times that I equate truth with verifiability. Even still, I apologize. You're right: the ideas of experimental science did come from Greek thought, and were appropriated by Christianity. Or at least two of them did: that the universe has an order, and that a finite number of laws will explain everything. The repeatability of experiments I'm not so sure of -- most Greek intellectuals were more interested in experiments of the mind than of the physical realm. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE METAL HEAD Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:04:11 Message Number 17051 Hate ta tell ya this, Metal Head, but this board has really little to do with the PentaCon. You might try calling Beyond Chaos (if it's still up) or Rocky's board for info about that. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:05:40 Message Number 17052 No verbal abuse is mature. All verbal abuse is degrading, both for the abused and the abuser. An extremely difficult kind of verbal abuse: "Some teachers would have a hard time believing a story like that." //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/23/91 02:07:45 Message Number 17053 Possibility A> seems much more likely, now. Oh, well. Thank the Ghods for Raid! //Dragonfly// =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Smokers Date & Time: 05/23/91 10:20:11 Message Number 17054 Pavlov? I thought that was called shock therapy. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: ALL Subject: hi, I'm back. Date & Time: 05/23/91 17:56:42 Message Number 17056 Sorry for not posting lately. I've been extremely busy. Going here goine there, buying all sorts of junk. I now have a portable CD player, a Nintendo, a bunch of CDs and cartridges. I'll try to hang around more again, my apologies. So, how is everyone? =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/23/91 18:57:18 Message Number 17057 >Awright! Well, kinda. The weather ain't been cooperatin' too much with me on the issue of getting the rolling temper tantrum I call a car back on the road...I got the transaxle in, but I've been rained out three times today already and don't have the driveshafts back in or anything...grr. Oh well, I figured while I was at it I might as well go all the way and fix a bunch of minor problems the damn thing has had for years, so I finally broke down and bought a new accelerator cable too (after using string and copper wire for a while) and even got a new keyswitch so I don't have to hotwire the Bug every time I drive somewhere...zowie! It'll be good to be mobile again. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:01:25 Message Number 17058 >Dude, Define logic. Random House New English Dictionary: Logic (log'-ik), n. The science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. If you start with a premiss that cannot be shown to be correct or reliable, a premiss that you believe simply because you want to believe it or you think you will go to Hell if you don't believe it or your parents told you to believe it when you were very young, then what you have may be phrased like logic but it ain't logic. It's "I believe this because I want to." That's not the same thing. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:04:06 Message Number 17059 >As I have stated at least three times, I equate truth with veri- >fiability. Yeah, and it's been a ridiculous statement all three times. A statement is true if it describes a real phenomenon or event or condition, not if some highly evolved monkeys can /prove/ that it describes reality. The statement 'The world is essentially spherical, rather than flat' is true now and it was true two thousand years ago when nobody could prove it, and it was true when there weren't any sapient beings around /to/ priove it. (Or would you suggest that that statement has only just recently become true?) The universe exists in a particular way and behaves in a particular way, and it doesn't give a damn whether or not some BBS user in Sarasota, Florida can demonstrate to the satisfaction of his peers that it behaves that way. Once again: If the world was not created six thousand years ago, and you believe that it was, the thing which you believe is not true. Since you seem to be making up defintions that suit your argument wherever it's convenient, though, I will once again turn to the Random House dictionary and tell you what it has to say about truth: "True or actual state of a matter; state or character of being true; actuality or actual existance." Of the word "True," it says, "In accordance with or not contrary to fact; being really such; authentic." Damn, I do believe that means statements about the world's age or the existance of God or the like can be true or not true /by DEFINITION/ without regard to your ability to /prove/ it. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: whew/relig,etc. Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:43:33 Message Number 17062 Whew...where does one begin? It seems that this is more of a general discussion now, which is fine.... I'm not sure we disagree - rather, we see things sometimes from somewhat different perspectives (and sometimes not!) Is there any way to sum up? Nope!! (I'll check our next few messages for an area in which to continue...) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: logic & relig?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:46:06 Message Number 17063 Re actions equiv to religions beliefs, my experience indicates that MOST people who believe in God (and a standard - usually Christian - religion), behave SIGNIFICANTLY different than their religious dictates. What say you now, philosopher? :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Nat. Healthcare Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:48:39 Message Number 17064 You're fortunate in your language abilities: I lack those. My options would be Australia, Canada, England, New Zealand...that's about it.... And as much as I admire those countries, and find PLENTY to criticize right here, I prefer the US to any other country (all in all), no matter whether I could speak other languages or not. Not that I would mind spending some years ALL over this globe.... Re criticisms, I'm still INCREDIBLY pissed off at the Supreme Court's decision re free speech in (partially) Federally funded clinics: If I weren't so mature, I'd find a way to poison those old judgebastards.... (Jes' my li'l ol' opinion).... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Birdraising Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:53:03 Message Number 17065 Hahahah...ugly bird-ducklings, eh? Well, I can tell you really enjoy your hobby (well, more than a hobby, I'm sure)....have you thought of raising other kinds of birds/animals?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: music Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:55:06 Message Number 17066 Some very good points re music. My first thought is that the "problem" may have to do with access.... Are there ways to provide "parental control" over what kids (especially pre-schoolers) listen to? I know that there are lockout options on cable TV.... My feeling is that no matter what a kid _hears_, it's not gonna radically change his beliefs (oops, "his/her" beliefs)... I think we forget how we were when we were kids... As much as I got into trouble here and there (nothing too outrageous), it was never related to any music, or play, or movie, or book that I experienced.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/23/91 19:58:34 Message Number 17067 I always wondered about that: don't wolves and stray dogs kill and eat chickens?? How do _they_ do it?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:00:13 Message Number 17068 Hahahahaha....speaking for myself (and all sane people, hahahaha), to summarize, we're discussing whether religion and logic, ummm, whether it's logical...umm, no, if religion causes, well, creates, ummm...no... What the hell were we talking about??? (no more tokes for me!) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: chocolate Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:02:38 Message Number 17069 I've been trying to analyze _why_ I love chocolate, and how to accurately define the taste sensation - that powdery, liquor-like, dark, full taste.....that's as close as I can make it out... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: music Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:05:19 Message Number 17070 Re music/censorship/children, what I find interesting is why certain "graphic" songs are popular! It's more than hype - there are so many to choose from, certain ones appear to be better (oops, make it in quotes) music!! I'm sure there are plenty of sexually-oriented songs wilder than what we usually hear, that just didn't "catch on".... Me? I don't like words with music.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: true/verifiable Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:08:49 Message Number 17071 OK, I'll bite: certainly, there are things that are true and - at least not yet - not verifiable, at least not provable. The problem is that "true" loses most meaning, for that very reason: if not verifiable, who proclaims it "true"?? Why should others believe?? And at what level is "verifiable" true-ly verifiable? We each find a point (I believe)...I believe it's true (verifiably) that Republicans are tight-assed selfish idiots. Verified by, for example, today's Supreme Court decision! (ok, so I exaggerate: sorry...truly!!) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:13:08 Message Number 17072 More moisture in that wall??? =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: B C Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:38:58 Message Number 17073 Yeah Beyond Chaos is up. (923-2862) 24 hrs [ I think] =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/23/91 20:40:57 Message Number 17074 Got 'em outta there, eh? What do you do abot dragon flies? *]:) Gotta fly, L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: SINDAR To: THE METAL HEAD Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/23/91 22:24:37 Message Number 17076 I be planning on having it at the likes of my Dog House sometime just after the ending of schoooool!.... within a few weeks. Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: DRAGONFLY Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/23/91 22:25:57 Message Number 17077 >...he gets walked hourly. Whether he wants to or not. I know....and this fact is getting to me a bit....specaily when I'm surly up with my favorite chew, blasting my way through like a wonderful arf dream and some idiot pokes me in the side cause he wants to strap some leesh and collar around my throat and walk through the wet grass. Now the leesh and collar I have now problem with.....tiss the arfing high wet grass which like rubs against my stomach and I become like really itchy and you keep pulling me so like I chomp down onto your leg and draw blood and...... oh....is the arf god rambling again? I thought so when I saw you all picking up your....now...uhm, please.. uhm...put...put down the...oh no...--run run run--.......put down the.. --bang bang--.....GUNS!!!!!!! Sindar =========== From: CHRIS FURLONG To: ALL Subject: Questionare Date & Time: 05/23/91 23:27:03 Message Number 17078 I am looking for a new user questionare for remote access the file ends in the extension .Q&A. Can any body help me? -/Chris/- =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:07:01 Message Number 17079 ...Better to have lost at love then to never of loved at all. Well...maybe, but it sure hurts when you loose and the only thing that could heal it is more........ =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:08:26 Message Number 17080 I'm a fanatical fan of his. Have a book at home that is the "Pre-history f the FarSide" and it even has a lot of his work that was originally turned down to be published. He's quite an animal fancier. Travels to Africa and all kinds of zoos and stuff to research his work. Even occasionall investigates things stuck to the bottoms of his shoes. According to the book some scientist/fan of his even named a type of myte after him..."******* garylarsonus"....for real!!! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:12:13 Message Number 17081 >>>pound with your brain... >>too soft and squishy... What about if you froze it first??? hehe =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: SAAVIK Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:13:43 Message Number 17082 >>if you forgot that one you're wasting your time... Well here's a story, about a lady...who was bringing up three very lovely girls....AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (SnakeByte pulls all his scales off and slithers onto the road in a feeble attempt to repent for singing the Brady Bunch theme song). hehehe =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:16:23 Message Number 17083 >>>mental bullies.... I would rather think of some of us as Mental Body Builders. Just go to the beach and flex that large, gray muscle. "Heeeey babe. How 'bout me doing some trig calculations for you. See that whimp...I'll go kick pi in his face...hehe" Anyway, I don't think verbal abuse takes much gray matter, just a loud mouth and a stripped clutch for a brain. I guess at some time or another we're all guilty of that....gulp! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/24/91 12:20:59 Message Number 17084 >>>like a quick kiss from your grandmother... More like a quick kiss from YOUR grandmother. I've been without a grandmother for several years now . Have to climb that tree again (or find your grandmother)........ssssssssssssSSnakebyte =========== From: RAT To: THE METAL HEAD Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/24/91 17:20:28 Message Number 17087 We already have a Pentagon. ----- / \  / \ \ / \  / =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/24/91 18:38:27 Message Number 17088 Sure seems like a double bind there....tho, guess what?, there are ways to break out!! =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: G. Larson Date & Time: 05/24/91 21:52:45 Message Number 17089 Hmm... I never knew ya had to study for sick comics, hehehe... In Lechter's at Sarasota Square Amll, they hava a few 'Far Side' coffee mugs. One has a picture of a scientist working on a bomb, and behind him is a guy ready to pop a paper bag. Have you ever seen any of Sam Gross's comics? His work's been published in Playboy & other mags... I have a book called 'I'm blind & my dog is dead'. It's hilarious. L8R! Knight Owl .s (damn... wrong board) =========== From: SAAVIK To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:10:43 Message Number 17093 Verbal abuse can be found anywhere... and usually is. Look at all the mental abuse in the workplace.... in the schools..... (sigh) in the world. "You'll never amount to anything worthwhile." That's gotta be the worst thing that /anyone/ can say to /anyone/... but hearing it year after year as a child... god, it's got to destroy the last shred of esteem in a child. And certain children are more sensitive to this than others.... But ya know, there's all kinds of abuse.... there's outright neglect... ignoring a child can do as much damage as verbal abuse to his/her self image. =========== From: SAAVIK To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:14:59 Message Number 17094 KO>Mosquitos are attracted to light. Could it be that the one wall was well lit? Or perhaps Dragonfly was well lit, eh? =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:18:38 Message Number 17095 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a debate that'll never be lost or won. Because it all falls back to a dirty word called censorship. No, I don't want my children listening to songs with graphic lyrics of any kind, but would I support a ban against that music.... No... because I think censorship can be abused too easily. One mans poison is anothers ...you get the point... If you allow one group of people to decide whats acceptable in music, then they;ll sooner or later be dictating in other areas.... it'll snowball...... always does. I certainly think they should put some kind of rating label on certain music, just like they do movies. And perhaps they could restrict what ages can buy certain music... I kno kids could work around that just like they do the cigarettes and beer laws but it could help that parent who doesn't know any better. Like the kids ask for Two Live Crew and they go out and buy it, not realizing what's on the tape. =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Page 2 Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:27:18 Message Number 17096 Thank you for that explanation of the on going conversation concerning logic, religeon, ect..or is that etc. My headache is gone now, thank you.... :) =========== From: SAAVIK To: THUMPER ONE Subject: Elvis Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:30:26 Message Number 17097 TO>So Drop by the house some time, and I'll sing "Hound Dog" for you... Er, uh...... will ya play the guitar and swivels yer hips too, O mighty Thumpelvis??? This /I/ gotta see...... make sure ya wear the white costume, the oine (one) with the rhinestones and the really huge belt buckle..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: THUMPER ONE Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:33:06 Message Number 17098 TO>...Try not to excite him (Sindar) too much, He'll piddle all over the landscape. Not to mention, your foot. =========== From: SAAVIK To: THUMPER ONE Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:34:43 Message Number 17099 TO>If I lose my fur, will I no longer be a rabbit? No, you will be a Hairless Hare...... they actually /do/ have a breed of hairless rabbits..... but they have to be the ugliest things you ever saw in your life..... Thumpy, I will love you even when /all/ the hair slides down your back. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:38:44 Message Number 17100 What's a FGOH???? =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:40:35 Message Number 17101 T>Jesus and Elvis are /everywhere/ Hmmm, that explains why everytime I eat a peanut butter sandwitch... if I lay it down for a moment and turn my back... it disappears! =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Bird Births Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:41:58 Message Number 17102 Wellll, yeah, I raised them.... kinda.. I've got a house full of kids, AND birds, AND let us not forget... the Arfers.... (even if we try, we can't forget them) =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:43:24 Message Number 17103 SN>...it is hard pulling those bone splinters out of your throat, ya know. Yeah, but that's not where they usually end up.... think lower.... think bowels.... think instestines.... and think severe pain. Ouch,,,, just thinking about it makes me want to arf.. er barf... =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:46:21 Message Number 17104 SN>....nuff said. Nuff said! =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:47:50 Message Number 17105 Labble? Hmmm, isn't that the thing you use to scoop soup? OH, no, that's a ladel... =========== From: SAAVIK To: THE METAL HEAD Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:48:57 Message Number 17106 The next Pentacon is scheduled when schools out (no date set that I know of yet) at the home of Terran Trace and Warren Peace. =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:51:06 Message Number 17107 DF> And he gets walked hourly... It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't chase every cat he saw would it? =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Smokers Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:52:08 Message Number 17108 Pavlov method? That would be a shocking experience. =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:53:46 Message Number 17109 Actually this is to all: Beyond Chaos is back on line....... Message based BBS run on C-net. A very nice board... Kaos 300/1200/2400 baud 24 hours a day 923-2862 =========== From: SAAVIK To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: hi, I'm back. Date & Time: 05/25/91 17:56:30 Message Number 17110 Welcome back... we missed your ego... hehehe. You keep buying all that stuff, and you'll have to get a bigger apartment. By the way, how's the wheels? =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Birdraising Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:03:36 Message Number 17111 I I've been raising things all my life... (hehehe... like hell, for instance)...no, seriously.... I've raised Parakeets, mice, rats, various breeds of dogs and horses, pigs, cows, chickens, ducks, and now Cockateils...... Believe me, if I had acreage here, I'd have livestock again. (maybe even a little Woodstock too) =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: music Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:07:54 Message Number 17112 Well, I can control what my kids listen to and watch in my presence and I can be pretty assured that the preschool and the after school care people aren't going to be showing "nasty movies" or 2 Live Crew to the kids.... but I dunno about some of the other kids my son hangs with. They seem to have no restrictions on what they watch and listen to... and when I restrict him.... then it makes him look like a "baby"... he says.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:10:09 Message Number 17113 Yep, a dog or a wolf or a coyote will eat a chicken, or any other bird for that fact... but they are eating it raw.... they could still have problems digesting the bones.... but raw poultry bones aren't nearly as dangerous as cooked ones. You should still never feed an animal poultry bones though. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:12:07 Message Number 17114 CD> No more tokes for me! Well, quit Bogarting and pass that thing on!!!! =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:13:36 Message Number 17115 SN>I be planning on having it at the likes of my Dog House.... Kinda crowded, doncha think? I'm confused though... I was told it would be at de home of de Terran and Warren.... is I wrong? Obviously, I is wrong..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/25/91 18:16:05 Message Number 17116 SB> Well, here's a story, about a lady...who was bringing up three very lovely girls... Nice try. (Saavik holds up a placard "8.5" =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: restrictions Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:18:52 Message Number 17117 Thee are some difficult choices there, but say he spent an afternoon listening to 2 Live Crew....what do you think would happen to him? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:19:50 Message Number 17118 Ahh, raw vs cooked: I never thought of that!! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Mind Matters Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:20:19 Message Number 17119 Heheheh...(re toking/Bogarting)...brings back fond memories.... :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: ALL Subject: Picnick!! Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:21:38 Message Number 17120 Join us at our Sarasota Monthly Indoor... PPPPP IIII CCCCC NN NN IIII CCCCC KK KK !! PP PP II CC CC NNN NN II CC CC KK KK !! PP PP II CC NNNN NN II CC KK KK !! PPPPP II CC NN NNNN II CC KKKK !! PP II CC NN NNN II CC KK KK !! PP II CC CC NN NN II CC CC KK KK PP IIII CCCCC NN NN IIII CCCCC KK KK !! Sponsored by Suncoast City BBS and Wyvern's Den BBS (Wyvern's Den 'in absentia' temporarily) Incredible giveaways, Incredible (cheap) food, Incredible talk! When? Saturday, June 7th, 10 AM to Noon Where? Chef Paul's, Tamiami Trail (Rt 41) at 16th ST (Gulf side) Who? ALL callers, sysops, friends, spouses, etc. Why? Because there will be great giveaways, great conversation and an inexpensive fun time!! (Last Picnick 'til FALL!!) For more details, call Suncoast City at (813)953-5505 -----And a SPECIAL Invitation to aLTERED rEALTIY Callers ! I got ---- -----Some GREAT stuff for you-all....we'll be reserving 35 places,--- -----(with another 10 in reserve).....hope you-all can make it !! --- =========== From: SINDAR To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:52:15 Message Number 17121 >What if you froze it first??? Well, frozen it may prevent it from cracking just right. Now, if you place it into a zip lock bag, you could smash and smash and Smash AND SMASH AND SMASH!!! oh...sorry.... Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:55:40 Message Number 17122 >theres outright neglect.... Yeah, what about that commercial.....this is your brains, this is your brains on drugs...imagine what that musta done to the kid whose brains those WERE!....Geeez, now we are surving up body organs and breakfest foods and peole are worried about movies with violence!?! True any type of verbal abuse can and is harmeful to WHOEVER hears it, but many of the things shown on tv could also be misinterprted. Just look at some of these kids on candid camera. True this is to be a comedy show, but these kids do not know this and are giving some of the truest answers and yet alot of the answers are a bit scarey! Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/25/91 19:58:41 Message Number 17123 >or perhaps Dragonfly was well lit eh? Damn, I knew we shoulda taken him outta the microwave a bit earlier.... now he has to converse with the night lights! Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:02:02 Message Number 17124 >breed of hairless hare.... SAAVIK.....I TOLD you to stop playing with the Erilady around the bunny farm..NOW look what ya did.....what a cataclysmic creation you've made here....geeez, now every bunny will be shaving themselves and putting neon painted strips down there sides....great, JUST great! sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:04:32 Message Number 17125 lay it (snadwhich) down and it disappears... No...thats just because you have a mouth on your back also which you have never seen.... Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:06:15 Message Number 17126 >oh, no, thats a ladel.... Whatever Saavik, remember...your the Bitch God, you can just create new things if they do not exist...Vulcans have been known to do this... a lot! Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: SinPuppy Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:07:35 Message Number 17127 >didn't chase every cat he saw would it.... HEY...I dont chase every cat I know....theres a few even "I" dont know that I chase...most fun I have those if chasing those parked cars...doesn't do wonders for your face in the morning but still.... its fun... Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:11:02 Message Number 17128 >Beyond Chaso back up line... Oh...so now you are making PLUGS! eh? what, you were bribed? Trying to get access? I KNOW you Vulcan types, ye dont just make posts about boards fer nuthing.... so...what was it Saavik....your surrounded.... (the arf children begin barking in surround sound.) Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/25/91 20:14:13 Message Number 17129 >petacon housing... Naw, I guess yur right....I WAS planning on having it at my house but I was talking at Rocky yesterday and it sounds like he was planning it fer his house....so I didn't egg it thing on... I dont mind though, he can have it there. Sindar =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: chocolate Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:01:11 Message Number 17130 CHAS>I've been trying to analyze _why_ I love chocolate Why? CHAS>...and how to accurately define the taste sensation Hmmm. It's that particular brown candy stuff that always burns the back of my throat. Howzzat? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: true/verifiable Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:03:37 Message Number 17131 CHAS>I believe...that Republicans are tight-assed selfish idiots. Grrr. What'd they do to you, anyway? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:37:38 Message Number 17132 T>So, how the hell are you? :) Much better thank you. As I speak I recover and recollect with a fond smile a day of debauchery, drinking and dastardly doings at Cocquina beach where a Cajun fella that I work with put on a hell of a BarBQ there. We had a blast. My attitude is much improved (in spite of the toe I broke there) which I needed after putting in a 65 hour work week. A Rode-hard-put-away-wet JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: sale stuff Date & Time: 05/25/91 21:41:21 Message Number 17133 T> You're selling an /Altair/?? You gotta be shittin' me!! Nope - of course it ain't the very first with the flip switches etc it is the B series that had the bootstrap in ROM and expected to see a terminal hooked up. JonBoy =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SAAVIK Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:05:59 Message Number 17134 You are right on allounts. Ynfortunately, I've become tha victim of ver- bal abuse that leads to the possibility of physical injury. (refusal from a co-worker to help me with heavy lifting) I have full intention on making waves on this matter with MGMT via a formal greivance. I hate to do it, but at this time, I find it extremely necessary to do so. L8R! (God, I hurt!!!) Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SAAVIK Subject: ... Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:21:07 Message Number 17135 The things that are withheld from kids, including curse words, graphic lyrics, and movies have been subject to censorship in one way or another . By that I mean that parents, and special interest groups have made the effortsof their own accord. Allese things that are witheld amount to nothing but what exists, but isn't acceptable in open conversation or acts. Granted, in time the children will learn of sex, etc. but there are also things that will remain taboo for their lifetime as they have in ours. (I hope that you understand what I'm trying to say... conversations like this are better in person) L8R! Knight Owl ( I feel like I flew into a wall. *OUCH!*) =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: fond memories Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:30:29 Message Number 17136 Me too! *]:)- =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: JONBOY Subject: altair Date & Time: 05/26/91 00:35:25 Message Number 17137 If you're gonna come to the indoor piknik, bring a picture of the ALTAIR if you can. It sounds cool! L8R! a nastolgic Knight Owl =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: TURTLE Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:32:13 Message Number 17140 T> ..(after using string and copper wire for a while) and even got a new keyswitch so I don't have to hotwire the Bug... If you the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it? =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: TURTLE Subject: hi, I'm back. Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:35:06 Message Number 17141 T> ..and wondering' when you're gonna post in the storyboard, boy... :) BOY! Boy? I said, I said, "Youra trendin' on might thin ice, son.' =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: SINDAR Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:42:02 Message Number 17142 I spoke to Thumper this morning and he said that Rocky and he was plan ning on having Pentacon III at their house in about three weeks. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:46:28 Message Number 17143 SB> Well here's a story, about a lady..who was bringig up three very SB> lovely girls... AAAARRGGGHHH....is right, god, I didn't even like that show when I was kid. I hate it even more now. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: SAAVIK Subject: hi, I'm back. Date & Time: 05/26/91 10:54:02 Message Number 17144 SA> By the way, how's the wheels? The car is running fine, I do need to get a gasket changed though. Other than that the car is running fine, and you wouldn't believe the number of chicks I've ******* since I got the car. (Yes, boys and girls, the ego is still in full effect, if not worse.) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: chocolate Date & Time: 05/26/91 18:31:07 Message Number 17146 Arrgggh...not good. Does it really burn the back of your throat? That's a shame!! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Republicans Date & Time: 05/26/91 18:32:09 Message Number 17147 What they did to the country is what bugs me: First, the Supreme (sic) Court's recent decisions re personal freedoms, then the political/taxation laws which are creating a 2-economic-level society - the rich and the poor. Then, their shutting down funding of working (along with non-working) social programs (I used to work in an Adult Education program, which did a HELL of alot of good - it's funding was cut over 50%), then their point of view toward minorities (disgusting)...need i go on???? Sure seems obvious to me!! =========== From: JONBOY To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/26/91 21:53:57 Message Number 17148 SS>If you the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it? Aintcha ever seen those emergency belts that amounts to nothin more than a giant rubber band with a special fastener at the end? Hell I think Vdub owners invented half of the band-aids in existence! I actually saw a bug that the guy had used a belt from like around his waist and another HE told me about used his necktie from going to church A real masochistic crowd those folks! A FORMER-VDUBBER JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Republicans Date & Time: 05/26/91 21:58:51 Message Number 17149 CD> Republicans ... What they did to the country is what bugs me: Well hell Charlie - I'm one of those weirdos that believe the whole damned system is about due for an overhaul. Too bad alternate parties have such a hard time breaking ground. What I find intrinsically stupid about people (not referring to you personally I should qualify) is that they will vote a line without ever once considering the actual issues. Example: most southerners vote democrat even though the party espouses a line that is in direct opposition to what promted the war between the states (state rights, strong state governments, a true republic structure etc). How'd this come to be? Well what the democrat party used to be resembles the Republicans of today and vice versa with an emphasis on the vice. I seem to recall the Whigs had something to do with it. Anyway - the system stinks right now. The demos want more social programs and spending which costs money (read taxes) and the repblicans want less social programs but more industry aid (read pork barrel politics and favoritism). Bah! Fire 'em all. Problem with government is people. They ain't happy just running the country and providing for the welfare of the citizenry. They have to play power games. I'm all for the Sci-Fi writer that had the system whereby the people in power were te ones who least wanted it. Or has anyone read the book by Piers Anthony - Triple Detente'? Theory being if you let your enemies rule your country they will be hindered in their government by the realization that *you* are ruling their country. Retaliation from within as it were. Enough rambling... =========== From: MAXIMILION To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/27/91 20:06:24 Message Number 17150 S> CNN tends to get stuck on... True...Sometimes when there's nothing else on TV (God Forbid..that shouldn't happen...I have cable!) I'll set it on Headline News...It take about 1 1/2 hours for the stories to start repeating themselves... For example, the Wexler Bird call competition...that was a Once an hour bit. It's nice to have news 24 hours a day, but it gets kind of repetitive... It's nice to have news 24 hours a day, but it gets kind of repetitive... Sure...whatever..... -Pete =========== From: MAXIMILION To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/27/91 20:15:15 Message Number 17151 Well, as this democracy is supposed to work, even Robert, the guy who stands by the side of the street has a chance at becoming president... (Not a large chance, he's still working for food while stadning outside a McDonald's that takes any application)_ No,w, I didn't say anything about competance, just qualifications.... -Pete =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: chocolate Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:52:01 Message Number 17155 >...how to accurately define the taste sensation [of chocolate]... Real chocolate should be hard, not plastic or soft; should break cleanly; and should be an even dark color. The taste should be sharply defined, sweet and slightly bitter, with no trace of a sugary or milky taste and no aftertaste at all. The sick joke Hershey's has perpertrated on the American public under the misnomer of "chocolate" ought to be a crime. --A finiky chocolate gourmet Turtle =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:56:32 Message Number 17156 >What about if you froze it first? Then your aim would be off. When you freeze your brain, it futzes your perception. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/27/91 23:58:52 Message Number 17157 >I certainly think they should put some kind of rating label on certain >music... Well, getting that to work would be very difficult. The agency that rates movies is voluntary and industry-wide; producers don't have to submit their films to be rated if they don't want to, and in any event setting up an organization like the CARA in the music industry would be very, very difficult. Prohibiting people under a certain age from buying certain albums simply wouldn't work. It would be intellectually danger- ous, as it would make producors unwilling to produce or distribute music that might not be easily marketable (and what would such a law be based on? Sexual content? imagery? certain words?). It would be an essentially unenforcable law. It would not serve society in any clearly-defined way. It would not serve the function of keeping objectionable albums out of circulation--do you /really/ think 2Live Crew's last album would have been so popular if nobody had attempted to censor it? No chance. And would you seriously suggest that the record store clerk who sells Jimmy a copy of a naughty album and thereby breaks the law should be jailed? Finally,. it'd have the same problem laws based on movie ratings do: they would certainly be struck down on an appeal. A fact few people are aware of is that it is /not/ legal to pass a law that makes reference to the Motion Picture Association's ratings, because those ratings are (a) voluntarily and (b) given by an organizationm that is not a legal entity and has no legal oversight. Finally, of course, it's just good old-fashioned censorship, which is morally wrong. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:07:23 Message Number 17158 >What's a FGOH???? Fan Guest of Honor. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: sale stuff Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:12:18 Message Number 17159 >...it is the B series that had the bootstrap in ROM... No way! It ain't really an Altair iff'n it knows what to do when you turn it on...it's a purity thing... =========== From: TURTLE To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:15:01 Message Number 17160 >If you [sic] the fan belt breaks, can you use a rubber band to fix it? Sadly, no. That's something that you can't improvise...VW Type I's have a BIG fan (oil-cooled engine) and there's a lotta stress on the fan belt... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: I got it... Date & Time: 05/28/91 00:17:21 Message Number 17161 >A real masochistic crowd those folks! Hey! We're not /that/ bad. =========== From: SINDAR To: TURTLE Subject: gas stations Date & Time: 05/28/91 13:34:32 Message Number 17162 Geeeez Turtle.....see if I come to your Amaco station again and have Tyler buy me gas again....(then again, what am I complaining about, he did buy the gas.) Forget about poor wittle 'ol sindar here. Sniff....naw...its cay....say good by to Tyler...say good bye to Fennec...but when it comes to acknowledging the person DRIVING them... sniff....heheheh...blah.....stalk at ye later! Sindar =========== From: RUFUS To: DRAGONFLY Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:09:04 Message Number 17163 About the best idea I've heard for the Main Plaza is making it the new spot for Selby Library. Oops..that's the old Maas Brothers store that was being suggested. It'd help the parking, and downtown could perk up somewhat. But on to your message. Roy and Mark of the local anime group tried to rent out a store once for their meetings and it was a no go. But it's worth a try to see if we could rent it. =========== From: RUFUS To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:19:02 Message Number 17164 >...Rush Limbaugh... In an amazing team-up, George F. Will and Rush Limbaugh have now joined together on their own daily talk show broadcast coast to coast. Half the free world promptly shot itself after hearing this announcement. =========== From: RUFUS To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: music Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:31:35 Message Number 17165 >As much as I got into trouble here and there...it was never related >to any music, or play, or movie, or book that I experienced... I can contribute my hellraising to 'Curious George' and 'Hamlet.' Man, talk about your bad influences. :) =========== From: RUFUS To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Picnick!! Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:42:03 Message Number 17166 Saturday is the 8th, not the 7th. =========== From: RUFUS To: ALL Subject: Religion Date & Time: 05/28/91 17:50:28 Message Number 17167 The following was found one day in the old video production room at my school. I'm wondering if it was written by someone in school or if anyone had seen it before. Anyways, it's a good read: Philosophy of the World's Religions Taosim: Shit happens. Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens." Buddhism: If shit happens, it is not really shit. Zen Busshism: What is the sound of shit happening? Hinduism: This shit has happened before. Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. Protestantism: Let shit happen to somebody else. Catholicism: If shit happened, you deserved it. Judaism: Why does shit always happen to us? =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: restrictions Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:18:54 Message Number 17169 An afternoon of listening to 2 Live Crew? My seven year old son? Well, he'd giggle like crazy at all the "bad words" he could recognize, then he'd hum the songs to see if I knew what they were, then he'd sing them leaving out the words.... and sooner or later, he'd start slipping the words in.... you know, he's almost eight... and it's his job in life to agravate and push his mother into the asylum. I just think that if they continually hear this stuff on TV and the radio, etc... it just becomes acceptable to them to say those things and think about the implications of the songs. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: bones Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:22:18 Message Number 17170 Raw vs cooked... yep that's the ticket. Is it my vivid imagination, or is this board running very very fast. I mean, there's no hesitation between messages, and it's scrolling really well.... Can it be..... 2400 baud???? =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Toking/bagartin Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:23:50 Message Number 17171 Yeah, I remember those "Cheech and Chong" kinda days. The "tree" at high school, the drive in theatre, the beach at midnight, the Bee Ridge extention..... (sigh) sometimes I wonder how we live through our youth. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:27:06 Message Number 17172 I had to laugh when you mentioned that commercial "This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs". When that first came out, Marshall and I were at Village Inn having breakfast. He's looking at the menu and he yells (you know how kids blurt things out) "Hey, Mommy.... I want some drugs for breakfast!!" Turned a few heads in the restaurant that day. Valarie is always taking the commercials at heart..... she wants one of those "cute little white guys" on the poppin' fresh commercial. We were at the store and she saw a Pilsbury cannister and yelled..... "Buy me that little guy, Mamma." =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Mosquito God Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:31:14 Message Number 17173 A Glow in the Dark Dragonfly???? Hmmmm, maybe now he's a cross between a Fire Fly and a Dragonfly. Hey, maybe that's how God came up with the idea of Fire Flies.... then again, maybe I'm losing it again... damn, and I just found it. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:33:48 Message Number 17174 I didn't shave the bunnies!!!!! I didn't!!! Really, they really, really, have a breed of bunnies who have no hair. But, gee, thanks for the neat idea about the neon stripes.... ......... Look out little bunnies...... =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:35:44 Message Number 17175 SN>....that's just because you have a mouth on your back also which you have never seen.... Hmmm, that would come in handy when I wanted to talk behind my back, eh? =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: blah Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:37:07 Message Number 17176 Vulcans create things that have never existed before? Hmmm, well, that explains where you came from. Why, you're just a fig newton in my mayonaise...(figment)..... OUCH, ok ok, don't bite... you're real, you'r real. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:39:21 Message Number 17177 For your persnickity information, I was plugging for Kaos as an unpaid endorsement..... so thpt! =========== From: SAAVIK To: SINDAR Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:40:42 Message Number 17178 Now, are you sure? Pentacon will be at the Rocks. By the way, what does "I didn't egg it thing on..." mean. You been tossing eggs at Rocky again? =========== From: SAAVIK To: JONBOY Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:42:57 Message Number 17179 I gotta ask, how'd ya break your toe? =========== From: SAAVIK To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:43:51 Message Number 17180 Absolutely! You must speak out if you have been injured on the job. Too many people don't speak out, then when they have reoccuring back problems (or something like that) they end up getting fired and they have nothing to stand on because the incident wasn't reported. Oh, there are still plenty of people out there who take advantage and abuse Workman's comp by exaggerating an injury... but more than not, an employee gets screwed because he suffered in silence. =========== From: SAAVIK To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: ... Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:47:09 Message Number 17181 I know you can't shelter your child from the world and all it's evils... .... but it's just that at certain ages, children get so damned independant... anything that ticks you off, they like... and those damne Rap songs with the nasty lyrics seem to be the trick. God, I sound like a parent in the 50's screaming about the evils of rock n roll. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: hi, I'm back. Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:50:08 Message Number 17182 Just when you thought it was safe to BBS...... dum dum....dum dum.... dum dum dum dum (that's supposed to be the music from Jaws).... ..... Scott Steel cruises by in his Wicked Womanmobile.... sounding like the "old" Mr. Microphone commercial. "Hey, Babe, I'll be back to pick you up later..." Varoom..... he's back.... and my god, has the ego grown???? Whatcha been feeding that puppy, Steel? =========== From: SAAVIK To: MAXIMILION Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:53:34 Message Number 17183 Heh. Too true about CNN.... During the Persian Gulf Crisis, however, CNN was on my TV 24 hours a day.... but since then, it's on for about an hour.... yeah, that's about how long it takes before they start repeating themselves. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/28/91 21:56:48 Message Number 17184 T> (Telling the facts of life about labels on records) Well, it was an idea anyway...... I guess there is no solution. You made a good point about the labels.... they /would/ make them appeal all the more to the kids who /couldn't/ buy them. (sigh) =========== From: SAAVIK To: RUFUS Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/28/91 22:00:29 Message Number 17185 HEY! I signed that petition to try to make the new place for the Selby Library at the old Maas... this guy came around to my house with it and I thought that was a great idea. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: SAAVIK Subject: isnlsdg Date & Time: 05/29/91 13:08:26 Message Number 17187 SA>"Buy me that Little Man, Mama!" Ah, yes...buy me this, buy me that...money, money, money. =========== From: RUFUS To: SAAVIK Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/29/91 15:07:28 Message Number 17188 I'm not really fond of our local library. They waste money on these really neat moving magazine shelves that don't save all that much space. Their new computer system bites moose dung, and they need to go after the people with books that are a year late. I'd be more than happy to form a force to go door to door beating up those people with books that are a year late. "Sarah Conner?" "Yes." "You have an overdue library book. Prepare to die." BLAM! Sticking it in Maas would give them more space, more parking, easier access, and people would probably spend time in the downtown area. =========== From: DEATH FENNEC To: RUFUS Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/29/91 16:59:48 Message Number 17192 RU> ...If you plan on making it permanently ... Yep. It most likely will be permanent. /! Death Fennec -- ;> =========== From: DEATH FENNEC To: ALL Subject: California ... Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:05:01 Message Number 17193 Hello. This is going to be a short letter, for I only have but a few things to say. I am going to be leaving for California on this coming friday. I want to say goodbye to all of the people that I cannot say goodbye to in person. So, to all of you that will not be able to see me off, I want to say goodbye to you all. I will call HERE whenever I can, and I will write to those of you that would like to speak with me. Although it would be really cool if Turtle got more than one line on this thing so that two people can talk to each other at once. So, I will speak with some of you later on. C-Ya, all! :) /! Death Fennec -- ;> =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: restrictions Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:16:06 Message Number 17194 Not in the slightest f*cking way could one of those d*mn songs ever get me to cuss. No d*mn way, you must be outta your *ss. Oh, I see what you mean, I agree with ya also. It does happen. Kids hear the words in the song, sing the song to themselves, hear others singing out loud and wammo.... Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Toking/bagartin Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:18:26 Message Number 17195 >tree at high school/drive in theatre/beach at midnight..etc... One question...I was always courious about and figure you guys couuld tell me, how many cranks did it take you to start your car engines back then? Or did you jus have ta like kick the Bronto really hard in the sides? Hehehe, jus joking guys.... maybe. Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: verbal abuse Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:21:12 Message Number 17196 > Drugs for breakfest and the other children things of Saaviks... Again...like I said, like Mother like children...sounds like your mentallity level there Saavik....Queen of all that Bitches. Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Religious Logic Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:23:34 Message Number 17197 > bunnies with neon stripes.... Yeah, racing stripes now...watch out Turtle.... hmmm, interesting idea....a Pentacon activity....a race between the bunny and the turtLE. THUMPER vs. TURTLE (geeez, almost wish I would be here for that one!) Sindar...but you can call me god.)arf god that is) =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: Pentacon Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:26:20 Message Number 17198 > pluging for Kaos as an unpaid endorsement.... Yeah sure Saavik....and the Arf God eats cat food.... Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: SAAVIK Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:27:29 Message Number 17199 > how did you (Jonboy) break your toe... Probably by kicking some lady who asked stupid questions like, "How did you brak yur toe..." Sindar =========== From: SINDAR To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: California ... Date & Time: 05/29/91 17:30:39 Message Number 17200 Ok, well, bye Fennec....been nice knowing ya and all... wait....what am I saying...I'm going with you...uhm, so I guess the same goes fer me too....bye guys...tas been great an all....see you on the other siide of the doggy door one day an all.... blah, no mushy mushys. Sindar ===========