LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 72 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask...... 2 ********************* REMOVED: 3 AUG 83 **************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 26 A new disk? A new disk!! Wheeee!!!! So come on, guys, lets have some real meaty concepts here. Whatever happened to 27 the Inn, anyway? Burn down? Or have the barbarians overrun it? 28 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 29 30 Here's a subject for you. I recently purchased a copy of Datasoft's ZAXXON, and was VERY dissapointed. Not only didn't 31 it come up to the arcade version, it wasn't even as good as the cover art implide. I realize that its hard to implimen 32 a version as complicated as the arcade version (with a dedicated micro inside), but I feel that they shouldn't imply 33 that the playfield will be crowded with objects, and then give me a barren, empty playfield in the game. Any comments? 34 =================================== 35 So what about the possibility that THREE phones are set up with call-forwarding 36 in such a way as to form a ring? Or how about N phones, where N is a number 37 greater than 3? Is call-forwarding recursive? 38 If it is true that call-forwarding phone A to phone B can somehow cancel 39 call forwarding from B to A, can a call be double-forwarded; i.e. from A to B 40 to C? 41 ------------------------------------- 42 Anyone out there every had any 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 OOPS ... 51 anyway .. any experience with the Turning Test for AI? Would this be considered a valid test in all instances? This really 52 interests me, I'd like some feed back. 53 54 -------------------------------------- 55 ---------------------------------------- 56 IMPROBABLE BESTIARY: 57 The Time Traveler 58 59 From Asimov Science Fiction. 60 61 Come on right in and we'll begin 62 while I adjust the screen. 63 For I'm the Chronic Argonaut, 64 and here's my Time Machine. 65 Just pick a place in Time or Space 66 (Or somewhere in between) 67 Sit back, and then we'll go Somewhen 68 Inside my Time Machine! 69 70 Pick an era to suit yourself: visit your 71 future self. 72 See ancient Rome in its glory. 73 You can breakfast with cavemen, or fly 74 with the brave men 75 who ride the first ship to Centauri. 76 You can witness the flight of those 77 brothers named Wright, 78 You can fight an extinct carnivore. 79 And enlist and enlist and enlist and 80 enlist 81 And enlist in the Hundred Years' War. 82 83 Come right in and we'll begin 84 While I adjust the screen 85 (Steady on a bit: I've said that 86 alrady, haven't I?) 87 For I'm the Chronic Argonaut, 88 And here's my Time Machine. 89 (Ah, hullo! I see the problem: we're 90 stuck in a closed-loop dimensional 91 continuum, and Time is repeating 92 itself over and over again. How 93 interesting.) 94 Just pick a place in Time or Space or 95 Time or Space or Time or Space or 96 Time or Space or (Hmmmm, the time- 97 stream appears to be doubling back 98 on itself. Hand me that spanner 99 wrench and stand back won't you?) 100 Time or Space or Time or Space or... 101 WHACK! 102 Ah that's much better, thanks. Now, 103 which time-stream are we in? 104 105 We'll have lunch with Rasputin and Sir 106 Isaac Newton 107 While sailing aboard the Titanic. 108 We'll have dinner at one with Attila 109 the Hun 110 In the midst of the Stock Market Panic. 111 We'll eat Dinosaur pie and a Dodo on rye 112 While the maidens of Babylon serve us. 113 (I'm informed that Jack the Ripper is 114 quite a good tipper, 115 But makes all the waitresses nervous.) 116 117 Come down the hatch and close the latch 118 while I turn back the clocks. 119 We're off to reach Infinity; next stop 120 is Paradox! 121 If anyone wants the Renaissance 122 Or the early Pleistocene 123 Or One Million A.D., they can travel 124 with me 125 Inside my Time Machine! 126 ---------------------------------------- 127 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 128 Also taken from Asimov Science Fiction: 129 130 Everybody knows how widely bamboo is used in the Orient, for a thousand 131 different things, but few are aware that it is the fastest growing of all 132 woody-stemmed plants. In some areas such as Sri Lanka it can grow at a rate 133 of 16 inches in a single day, often reaching a height of more than 100 feet. 134 If the tip of a bamboo stalk is viewed through a power microscope, you can 135 actually SEE it grow! 136 It was near the middle of the twenty-first century that Professor Mitsu 137 Matsu, a Tokyo geneticist, succeeded in engineering a new bamboo species 138 that he called Fibonacci bamboo because of its remarkable way of growing. 139 Not only did it grow at a steadly accelerating rate, but the rate conformed 140 precisely to what mathematicians call a generalized Fibonacci sequence. 141 "Yes," said Dr. Matsu one sunny afternoon to Dr. Beatrice Mince, a vi- 142 siting geneticist from Philadelphia, "each day's growth is exactly equal 143 to the growth of the two preceding days. If a stalk grows A feet the first 144 day, and B feet the second day, the third day's growth of C feet will equal 145 A plus B." 146 "And the fourth day the growth will be B plus C?" asked Dr. Mince, 147 gazing in wonder at the tall hollow "trees" that were sprouting in the dense 148 bamboo forest through which they were strolling. 149 "Exactly. Every twenty-four hours the growth for that period is pre- 150 cisely the sum of the growths on the preceding two days. Fortunately, 151 when a stalk reaches a height of about five hundred feet, it stops growing." 152 "I know that Fibonacci sequences are involved in the growth patterns 153 of many plants," said Dr. Mince, "but this is really fantastic." She reach- 154 ed out to touch a bamboo joint that was making a faint humming sound. She 155 could feel it vibrating. "How much will this stalk grow today?" 156 "One hundred feet," Dr. Matsu replied. 157 "And when did it start to grow?" 158 "Six a.m. last Sunday. Today is Saturday. By tomorrow morning at six it 159 will have grown for exactly one week." 160 "How much did it grow on the first and second days?" 161 "I don't recall," said Dr. Matsu. "Different strains of Fibonacci bamboo 162 grow at different rates during the first two days. I'll have to check my 163 records." 164 "This presents us with a pretty problem in number theory. Assume that 165 the seven integers that represent the stalk's growth, on each of the seven 166 days, form the longest possible Fibonacci chain that ends in 100. Assume 167 also that the second day's growth exceeds that of the first day, and that 168 each day's growth is an integral number of feet. You now have all the 169 information you need to determine how many feet the stalk grew on the first 170 day and on the second day. 171 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 172 Ok you guys...Go solve the problem. 173 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 174 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 175 "Turning"? if you are going to play hardball,at least wear a mit.... 176 if anyone else (who at least knows of which they speak) 177 wants to have some action (lets stay away from old Martin 178 G. Mathmatical games and I.A's sci-fi mags) I am ready and 179 willing to participate............... 180 Aaron 181 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 182 (much later......) 183 is Paul Abbus out there........or maybe he's the one with 184 the strange spelling.........contact requested............... 185 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aaron<><><><><><><><><><><> 186 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ right on the spelling ... wrong on 187 the mit ... what y'u got aaron ... PA 188 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 189 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 190 the SUNDAY TRADER BBS 191 652-xxxx 192 193 will be On-line SUNDAY for 24hrs. 194 Fearuring: Downloads for the Atari (you'll need an Upload). 195 196 What happens if you take Input from the Modem and put it in Operating System 197 RAM? Well that's what happend on AMIGO- SUNDAY last week. In some ways last 198 week was a success (installation of a 1200 baud Modem and auto-Baudrate) 199 But the Input bug didn't allow anyone to really appreciate it. Now AMIGO- 200 SUNDAY has a new name and a new format- try it. 201 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 202 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 203 paul? (^) is that you? 204 if so...I have heard some reports of intelligence from nw/bbs 205 users generaly pointing in your direction....is this,at least,somewhat 206 accurate?if so how 'bout a little "put up your gray matter and fight" 207 discussion....any rational subject....but im here for content ,not 208 form................................................Aaron 209 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 210 ----------------------------------------aaron- 211 OK ... your pick or mine. I lean 212 toward comm. protocols, AI (as you 213 are aware), robotics in general ... 214 215 what do you do besides the boards? 216 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 217 A.I.,please........i get enuf comm.prot and robotics at work... 218 besides the boards,you mean there is something other than the boards? 219 220 wellll.....graphic controllers....sound synthesis....math theory.... 221 ......c64 trend-setting.........sci-fi hobnobbing.....et cetra and misc.. 222 223 Aaron 224 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 225 how do i know you are P.A.,well if you can type it dont matter.... 226 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 227 ----------------------------------------Aaron: 228 229 Your on a c64 to, I've had mine about a month ... I really like the box. My background is pretty in the larger mainframe are 230 I've been interested in mics <> 8 months ( as far as internals go ). 231 232 "A.I., please ...." sounds like a negative so I'll pass on that. 233 234 Graphics contollers - good one 235 236 Music synthesis - interesting 237 238 Math theory - its been a long time since I've even been around anyone that knew that this one exists 239 240 & c64 - do it 241 242 PA 243 --------------------------------------- 244 oops....no,really,AI is good for me.....its that other stuff i get enuf of 245 Aaron 246 what kind of mainframe? 247 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 248 please dont go past col 75,my term dosnt wrap... 249 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 250 ------------------------------- 251 Aaron- IBM 370/4331 DOS/VSE 252 and I'm coming to the conclusion 253 that mainframes are a daed end. 254 255 Paul 256 -------------------------------- 257 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 258 IBM 370,hmmm i have no experience with that unit, 259 but something with a similar instruction set (down to the 260 SVC's) interdata (perkin elmer)....... 261 did you accept AI?if so the first round is yours........ 262 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 263 i am of the opposite opinon:mainframesa (actually minis) we be the 264 only survivors of the tecno-onslaught to come.. 265 but im not willing to discusss the relative merits of main/mini/micros 266 to each other ......bring on the AI! 267 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 268 does any one out there speak english? 269 break 270 ------------------------------------- 271 Aaron- 272 Was out for more potables. 273 274 AI ... well, I'm not sure that the 275 tacks we are taking in the research 276 that I've read about so for are go- 277 ing to lead us to the ability to deter- 278 mine if we are dealing with an alien 279 intelligence ... are tools present 280 to know it if we have it? 281 Will the uncertanty principle come 282 into play in the determination? 283 284 Paul 285 -------------------------------------- 286 To: Art From: Bob I nead to talk to you about the Ham/Computer-show. 287 We nead to nail down what the computer people nead for space. 288 And any thing special they may nead . Please call ASAP. 289 Bob 290 ************************************************************** 291 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 292 ----------------------------------------Aaron: 293 I'll try again around 10:30-11:00 294 295 Paul 296 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 297 yes,but (classical,eh?) is it necessary to define what is 298 artificial intel? If a system functions in such a way that 299 it preforms,why bother labeling it?As for the UnPrin,i doubt 300 that,strictly speaking,quantum mechanics will have much to do 301 with it;yet on a more friendly level,it is possible that in setting 302 the measurment criteria,we make it impossible to determine the 303 "meta" criterion of being truly "inteligent".......Aaron 304 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 305 MODE 306 HELP 307 LIST 308 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 309 Oh mighty innkeeper, what has happened to the Backwater? 310 It seems to have been taken over by a group of people who have no more 311 interest iin the poetry of life... 312 My absense has been longer than I had wished, but i sit in this 313 unoccupied place, oorder one of your finer ales, and ask of the events of 314 the past month. What has happened to my old friend, Lady d? I presume she 315 has left on her journey long ago. And is Grey Ghost still a patron. 316 Ahh... I have finished my ale (I drink quickly), and am off to the 317 night. I shall drop by for a longer visit later, perhaps? 318 Lest I forget, I must also ask of the whereabouts of the Amazon. I 319 should like to hear her voice, also. 320 Akonis 321 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 322 ----------------------------------------Aaron: 323 Meta-criteria? Thats saying the 324 "criteria-criteria" - this larger 325 scope is some what baffling - please 326 elaborate ... also true in the strictist 327 sense QM doesn't apply (without saying) 328 but the idea of a subjective observer 329 is still valid I think. 330 Paul 331 --------------------------------------- 332 Also to Akonis: 333 Being a new user on this board I 334 personally have nothing the "poetry 335 of life" as a matter of fact its one 336 of my favorites ... I an trying to learn the tastes of the new group of 337 people I an dealing with ... please 338 return me something .... 339 340 Paul Abbus 341 ---------------------------------------- 351 -> Only 2 lines left 353 ********************************************************* 354 UP 15 355 ZAXXON -- I RECIEVED MY COPY AND IT WORKS AND LOOKS GREAT.. 356 I HAVE HEARD THAT OTHER VERSIONS ARE NOT SO HOT.. THE ATARI FOR ONE.. I'M 357 USING A 64K TRS-80 COLOR AND NO COMPLANTS 358 359 WHATS GOING ON HERE? THE ABOVE CREAP SURE SHOULD HAVE HIS TERMINAL 360 TRASHED!!!!!! FOUL MOUTHS AND FOUL MINDS DON'T BELONG ANYWHERE THAT IS 361 PUBLIC. 362 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 363 364 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 365 yes,as if we ever determin a system to be artif. intel.,we will 366 have deifned all the various things that we will use a criteria;does 367 it remember x,did it do the yyy,can it zzz,when we have finaly establish 368 ed what is inteligent behavior,we may have ruled out,by our own definiti 369 ons,what is truly (truly! maybe that strange concept of perfect,golden,actual,is 370 what im looking for instead of truly....some philosopher had something 371 to say about the scuzzy image of things we had here on earth,and their 372 reality,which was just a concept of that object perfected....well truly 373 will have to do)inteligent! 374 Aaron 375 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 376 ********************************************************"**j****j***** 377 378 To:Bob From: Art 379 380 Subject: Ham Fair 381 382 Will have to be the evening of 07/31/83. We will be gone for the 383 afternoon. I will call you. Hope you can survive? ok ? 384 385 ******************************************************************** 386 *************************************************************** 387 To ART From: Bob 388 Subject: Ham Fair 389 Ok Art I Will be looking for you then,I guess 390 that explains why I haven't ben able to get a hold of you on 391 the radio or phone. I hope you and Rose stay cool. I was told 392 you went running in our minney Heat wave yesterday. I think 393 you nead your head examined. 394 Bob. 395 396 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 397 -_ ATTENTION DRAGON LADY!!!!! Are you going to go to the _- 398 -_ CBBS Pizza Party? If so, yipee!!! If not, go anyway. I'd _- 399 -_ Like to meet the brain behind the words _- 400 -_ _- 401 -_ Tron _- 402 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 405 ---------- 406 If you have a TRS-80, you will see weird things happen 407 -----------------uuuuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuguguhguhguhgubarf! 408 ----------------------------------------Aaron: 409 I'm not sure I understood all that, what I 410 think your getting to is that if a criterial for intelligence is 411 determined, that the criteria may says 412 that as a specie we aren't. That seems 413 a bit like "the tail wagging the dog" 414 to me. 415 416 Paul 417 --------------------------------------- 418 OK, I like the idea of AI. However, lets please stay away from the 419 philosophical dead end loop of "it can't be defined because we don't 420 now what it is!" We have come a long way since Turing posited his famous 421 "if we can't tell he difference, there is none" test. For one thing, we 422 now know a lot more about how we as humans think. The current definition 423 runs to something like "capable of appropriate action, in situations not 424 previously defined." In other words, it can figure out what needs to be 425 done, rather than your standard program that is totally prewritten. It 426 could be a learning or a computing machine. Our current knowlege of human 427 thought says we are not very good computers, instead we are very good 428 remembers. We have what is called content adressable memory, in that we 429 compare what we experience now with what we remember, and we remember 430 things not by address like a computer, but by searching for similarities. 431 The Turing test isn't so much a test of the computer trying to pretend 432 it is a person, as a test of our own tendency to assume more than we see. 433 A computer that lied, and a person that lied could be hard to tell apart, 434 not because the computer was as good at lying as the person, but rather 435 that the person could seem to be a good lying computer. 436 Real AI can't be put on a micro, not because the micro isn't smart enough, 437 but because it can't access enough memory. Eliza seems pretty smart until 438 you ask it "who is the president of the USA?" The rules that the working 439 AI programs use aren't very dificult, they are only very numerous; humans 440 process these rules in parrallel (sp?) computers must do it serially, but 441 they are much faster at each step. Human sight, for example, involves 442 the eyes not only as detector of light, but also in complex comparisons 443 and data reduction (The eyes detect lines, edges, etc by themselves). 444 This is done by millions of cells, all working at the same time. 445 Computers, on the other hand, build an array and work through it one cell 446 at a time. This may be more accurate but even with the fastest computers 447 is MUCH slower that the human eye. 448 It seems very unlikely to me that we will see (at least in the near future) 449 a computer that seems to think like a person, however, we will soon see 450 computer programs that are inteligent in their own way. 451 Now for the $64,000 question: when this computer program comes on line, 452 is it a "person", does it have rights, should it be able to vote, can it 453 be turned off (or it this murder?)? Which leads directly to the next part 454 of the question: who is a person, who should be able to vote, who or 455 what has rights? Geneticists beleive that a cross between a human and 456 a chimpanzee might survive, and perhaps even be fertile. Is this a person? 457 AI doesn't just refer to machines made of silicon and steel. 458 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\jul 31,,1450 pm\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 459 As evening fell, the traveller crested a hill and looked down into 460 a broad deep valley, with a river winding it's way to the sea in the 461 distance. Far below him he could see the lights of the Inn through the 462 trees. He paused to enjoy the scene, but soon pressed on toward the 463 beckoning light of the Inn. 464 Darkness comes quickly here in the forest, but the sound of merriment 465 lured him on, and soon he entered the Inn. He laid his pack in the 466 corner farthest from the fire, and spying an empty table nearer the 467 fire, sat down to rest and sup. 468 The innkeeper could see he came from far off by his clothes, so as 469 well as offering him food, also inquired as to his origins and 470 destination. 471 The traveler's tongue seemed to wind around itself as he spoke, but 472 all who could hear him understood. "I come from far away, and 473 travel to distant lands. No, I cannot tell you where I go, or 474 why. Though my mission is important, and I desire your hospitality, I 475 cannot speak of it. Now, though, may I sup? And, a tankard of your 476 famous ale!" 477 The Inn fell quiet for a moment, but the strange hint of 478 darkness soon blew away, and the sounds of laughter and arguement that 479 had prevailed before soon returned. 480 A feeling of inquiet filled the innkeeper when he looked at the 481 newcomer, but when he saw the cat accept the man, and a snack from his fingers, 482 then jump into his lap, he knew that no harm would befall them this night. 483 ................................................................. 484 In at least some systems, the call forwarding doesn't 'take' unless the 485 number you forward to answers, it will be impossible to close the loop; 486 to make it even more interesting, in some systems if A is forwarded to 487 B, and B forwards to C, the calls from A are not carried along, but in 488 other cases they are. In other words, don't expect a simple, specific 489 answer for a question with more than one answer. 490 {{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}ring 491 I AM BACK...I HAVEN'T MISSED MUCH ON DRIVE B. 492 I HAVE SOME 68008'S AND A 68000 MICROPROCESSOR IN MY DRAWER NOT BEING USED. 493 I WOULD LIKE TO USE THEM. I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT TIMING SEQUENCES FOR 494 THE CONTROL LINES. DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHONG ABOUT THESE GREAT 16/32 BIT 495 PROCESSORS FROM MOTOROLA??? 496 497 THE SYSM. 498 499 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* 500 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 501 sysm: there not so great........ 502 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 503 not at all,what i am saying is that the crteria for "intelligence" 504 needs to be separated from the criteria for "functionality"....we 505 (and to you also BAD,(ps call me please))tend only to define 506 systems as ai if they can answer questions or move blocks 507 around or that ilk..................Aaron 508 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 509 510 **** FOR SALE :::: 511 512 NEW IN THE BOX WITH WARRANTY INTACT 513 USED TWICE BUT TOO SLOW FOR APPLICATION 514 515 >>> HAYES STACK 300 SMARTMODEM <<< 516 ...$ 175.00... BRUCE TABOR 517 518 519 ----------------- 520 re the AI comment of system off/murder: if that part of the operating system and memory that defined the personality 521 was ROM rather than RAM and retained its integrity without power, and RAM was used entirely for storage during logical 522 operations and reasoning, there would be no "murder". The individual would return when power was restored. 523 ----------------- 524 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 525 would it realy? what if I could push a "cold start" button on 526 you that would erase all the current CHEMICAL patterns in your 527 brain (RAM) yet would keep all the phisical connections (Rom),when 528 you "came back on line" you would certainly exist...but you would 529 be different had not we puched the button at all.....Aaron 530 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 531 "a" individual would return...but would it be "the" individual ? 532 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 533 ----------------- 534 You're begging the question. The postulate is ALL memory of the computer will be stored as non-volitle ROM. 535 536 A cold start would return the individual to the point it was at when first powered up. Humans have 2 forms of memory 537 too, long term and short term. Consider the long term as ROM and the short term as RAM. If the item is important enough 538 , the human mind will convert it to long term memory. With the computer, one could consider this conversion as an 539 EPROM burner. If important enough, it will be burned onto EPROM and stored permantly. Thus, when the computer is turned 540 off, important events and items have been stored. 541 Not only is the individual still the same, but it can learn and advance. 542 ----------------- 543 THE MC68000 IS PROBABLY THE MOST ADVANCED SINGLE CHIP 16/32 BIT MICROPROCESSOR 544 AVAILABLE (ASIDE FROM BIT SLICE PROCESSORS). 545 546 IT OFFERS: 547 548 1. 16 MEGABYTE DIRECT ADDRESS RANGE 549 2. VERY EXTENSIVE COMMAND LIST (OVER 550 A THOUSAND DIFFERENT INSTRUCTIONS) 551 3. A WIDE RANGE OF SUPPORT CHIPS (ALL 552 VERY HIGH SPEED ADVANCED LSI) 554 4. VERY HIGH SPEED (32 BIT INTERNAL 555 ARCITECTURE AT 8 MHZ IS DAMN FAST!) 556 5. POWER APPROACHING THAT OF A MAIN 557 FRAME COMPUTER. 558 559 560 SO DON'T TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T SO GREAT!!! IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION! 561 562 THE SYSM. 563 564 +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* 565 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 566 rom and ram are not good representation of short and long 567 term memory...it is infinitly more complex...yet not important here... 568 in fact,it isn't the degree of "importance" that determines whether 569 the short to long term conversion takes place.... 570 the point about "murder" is trivial...i will not discuss it further, 571 except that in the future we may have laws preventing us from destroying 572 AI systems,not on moral grounds,but that the information and structure 573 they have achieved would be irreplaceable.... 574 lead on..... 575 <><><><><><> 576 sysm.... 577 not meaning to say you know not of which you speak,but 578 have you ever participated in the design of anything 579 68000 based? 580 Aaron 581 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 582 is anyone out there intrested in hp-3000s? 583 or corvi? corvus(us?) (apple/pet/???) 584 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 585 586 587 Wow! such verbousity! You guys have been active! 588 one thing to consider, have you considered the 589 difference between fixed intellegence as represented 590 by computers, calculators, and books verses mutable intelegence 591 as represented by us humans? 592 **** CISTOP MIKEY (OR IS IT MEMOREX?) **** 1 AUG 83 ********** 593 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 594 MIKEY MY CRT SHATTERED! 595 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 596 --------------------------------------- 597 Aaron: Boy its been hard to get in to the Backwater! 598 There seem to be about four different 599 discussions going one here, so I'll try to pick the one that seemed closest from 600 last time. 601 The point was made that the reason the Machine rather then the Program could not 602 be considered intelligent was because 603 of serial processing ... 604 well if thats the case then the 5th generation project should definitly get 605 use closer to an machine based AI. 606 As far as "machine death" is concerned, my opinion is that if you have a process 607 by which ALL the memory of the machine could be stored, you couldn't kill it ... 608 as a matter of fact isn't that one of the aurguments for the research into AI, having an 'eternal intell.'? 609 610 Paul 611 ---------------------------------------- 612 ARTIFICIAL INTELLEGENCE!! who needs it.....i shure doughn't 613 and I kno ewe doughn't ether... 614 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 615 yes,i agree about the "death" 616 617 I dont think that AI is limited to non serial processing machines, 618 if we can do it on a conc. machine,we can do it on a serial. 619 620 what point were you making about the unc prin? 621 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>Aa,<><>>< 622 The Turing test was propsed to get around the problem of 623 defing "intelligence". However it also has the advantage of not 624 necessarily being as anthropocentric as the ideas suggested 625 above. 626 A computer doesn't have to "think" the same way we do 627 to be intelligent does it? I suspect that there may be more 628 than one kind of "intelligence". To quote the late John W. 629 Campbell: show me something that thinks AS WELL AS a man, but not LIKE a man! ......Leonard