Note: The first eight lines of this disk were missing. I don't know what happened. Perhaps they got deleted accidently. LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 80 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 REMOVED: 15 AUG 83 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 RE: LAST COMMENT ON DRIVE 'B'; I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THE BURDEN OF EDUCATION 26 SHOULD BE BORNE BY THOSE THAT HAVE CHILDREN IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. 27 I RAISED THREE KIDS AND ALL WERE EDUCATED IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS BOTH ELEMENTARY 28 THROUGH COLLEGE. I PAID DOUBLE FOR THEIR EDUCATIONS AND FEEL THAT THIS IS 29 GROSSLTY UNFAIR. I SENT MY CHILDREN TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS BECAUSE I WANTED THEM 30 TO EXERCISE THEIR MINDS, NOT THEIR BODIES ON SOME SPORTS FIELD. I AM NOT 31 AGAINST SPORTS PER SE BUT THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE SCHOOLS. THERE IS 32 PLENTY OF TIME FOR FUN AND GAMES AFTER SCHOOL. IF SUPERVISION IS NEEDED THEN 33 IT SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY AND NOT PAID FOR BY THE TAX PAYERS. THE SAME GOES FOR 34 ALL OTHER EXTRACURICULAR ACTIVITIES. LETS GET BACK TO THE THREE 'R'S. 35 SIGNED EX-COLLEGE PROF.(PRIVATE SCHOOL) 36 37 **************************************************************************** 38 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 39 40 I had hoped that we were beyond the time when such selfishness was the primary motivating force. An educated population is in 41 the best interests of everyone, and benefits all of society. People with no education are a drain on society, and usually cost 42 the taxpayer more in the long run than educating them would have cost. As the number of families with school age children 43 decreases, the tax base for the above proposition would steadily decrease. Eventually, we would have a situation where there 44 simply weren't enough in your select group of taxpayers to support education. So the system fails. Who needs public education 45 right? After all, all those newly smart poor people are going to do is invent new ways to cheat on welfare, right? 46 47 Excuse me. I get a little cynical when I see a group of obviously well off people talk as though being rich was just a common 48 thing. This is America, guys, remember? It is our DUTY (an outdated word, I know, but some of us still believe in the concept) 49 to provide an education to EVERYONE!! Not just the priviledged few, or those who can afford it. "Let them eat cake" is simply 50 not the response they deserve. 51 It seems that our tax system is structured so that we get to vote on those taxes that those in charge feel we won't turn down. 52 But, as the schools are generally supported by property taxes, the rich are more and more against schools. They feel 53 ( justifiably ), that they carry the majority of the burden of supporting public schools. To make them feel better, perhaps we 54 should support public schools from some other base. How about (do I dare say it?) sales tax? Maybe a tax on paid private 55 school tuition. If you want your child to go to private school, you must pay taxes equivalent to the cost of sending a child 56 to public school. 57 There has to be a solution other than a total abandonment of the school system that has been suggested above. I'm sure 58 that the well educated customers of this Inn could arrive at better ideas than that ( the baby's wet itself! Kill it!! ). 59 Madame DeFarge is still with us in spirit, and I'd prefer we didn't get the chance to see her knitting needles. 60 /Elberich\ 61 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 62 ******************************************************************************************************************************* 63 To Elberich: 64 You completely miss the point. I am merely stateing that the school system as it stands today is not doing the job that should 65 be done. I don't mind paying taxes to educate the masses (as you put it) but I do mind paying for fancy stadiums, band uniforms 66 and all other unessecary non-esential papaphenalia. Spend the money on books, qualified teachers, and class rooms!!! I fail to 67 see why my tax dollars should go to support the next quarterback for the Jets or the Rams. I also feel that there is no room 68 for public (ie. Tax dollars) to build or even subsidize public stadiums, coloseums, etc. Let those things be paid for be the 69 folks that use them. 70 As long as we have mandatory public education how about keeping it just that and not public entertainment. 71 You mention that the number of school age persons is declining ergo the tax base. What you and most fail to resalize is that 72 the fewer the children in the schools, the lower the cost should be. Notice I said "SHOULD" Of course we all know this is not 73 true as the beauracracy that exists is not about to limit itself while we are able and willing to pay. It's about time we all 74 demanded an accounting of every administrator, teacher, and board member as to just where our money is being spent. This also 75 applies to those in any public office from the govenor on down, or up. 76 ******************************************************************************************************************************* 77 TO: EDUCATION DISCUSSION 78 RE: THE LAST 350 OR SO LINES 79 80 1) PSYCHOLOGISTS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY STRONG INFLUENCE ON SOCIETY 81 AT ALL, GIVEN THE TRACK RECORD THEY'VE GOT, LET ALONE BE ALLOWED AROUND 82 CHILDREN. HOWEVER, PSYCHOANALYTIC THEORY MATCHES UP WELL WITH NOTIONS 83 ABOUT SICKNESS,CRIMINALITY,CLASS STRUCTURE, ETC THAT WE AS A SOCIETY 84 HOLD QUITE DEAR. THEREFORE WE WILL PROBABLY BE SADDLED WITH THEM UNTILL 85 GENERALLY ACCEPTED THOUGHT ON THESE AREAS EVOLVES A BIT, NO MATTER HOW 86 MANY STUDIES CONFIRM THAT PATIENTS UNDERGOING ANALYSIS DERIVE NO BENEFIT 87 FROM IT. 88 2) CHILDREN - SOMETIMES VERY LARGE AND WELL ARMED CHILDREN - MISBEHAVING 89 IN A CLASS CAN MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO TEACH OR LEARN. BRING BACK 90 CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. (ANY COMMENTS!) 91 3) SELFISH OR NOT, MOST PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF DON'T WAN'T TO VOTE FUNDS 92 FOR PROJECTS OF DOUBTFUL VALUE, INCLUDING SCHOOL LEVIES. WE REGARD THIS 93 IN PART AT LEAST AS A PROTEST AGAINST THE SHORTCOMINGS OF THE SYSTEM - 94 ALBEIT A CRUDE TOOL AT BEST, THIS PROTEST IS PERHAPS THE ONLY THING 95 FOUND SO FAR THAT WILL MAKE A BEAUROCRAT OF ANY PERSUASION SIT UP AND 96 LISTEN TO OTHERS. THE DEBATE WE ARE HAVING HERE NOW OWES SOMETHING TO 97 THE DEBATE OVER FUNDING. 98 4) MAKING THOSE WHO CHOSE TO HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN OTHERS, WHETHER 99 BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS BELIEF, TRADITIONS OF A SUBGROUP, PERSONAL 100 PREFERENCE, OR LACK OF EDUCATION ABOUT CONTRACEPTION, PAY MORE HAS GREAT 101 APPEAL TO MANY. IN FACT, MANY COUNTRIES NOW HAVE A VARIETY OF MEASURES 102 LIKE THIS DESIGNED TO PROMOTE ZERO OR LOW POPULATION GROWTH. HOWEVER, 103 SOME WILL STILL NOT BE ABLE TO PAY, AND THEIR CHILDREN SHOULD OBVIOUSLY 104 STILL BE EDUCATED. FORTUNATELY, A FAIR METHOD FOR MAKING THOSE WHO HAVE 105 CHILDREN AND WHO CAN AFFORD A 'CHILD TAX' PAY MORE ALREADY EXISTS. 106 THAT IS TO ELIMINATE THE DEDUCTION FOR CHILD DEPENDENTS ON THE FEDERAL 107 INCOME TAX. THOSE WITH LOW INCOMES WILL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THIS AS MUCH 108 AS THOSE WITH HIGH INCOMES, AND THOSE ON WELFARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, SOCIAL 109 SECURITY, ETC EVEN LESS OR NOT AT ALL. AT THE SAME TIME THE PEOPLE WITH 110 ONE, TWO OR NO CHILDREN WILL NOT BE SUBSIDIZING THE OTHERS TO SUCH A GREAT 111 EXTENT. 112 5) WHERE ARE THE FEMALE PARTICIPANTS AND YOUNG PARTICIPANTS (UNDER 18) 113 IN THIS DISCUSSION. EITHER GROUP ON THE AVERAGE HAS MORE PRACTICAL 114 CONTACT WITH THESE ISSUES THAN ADULT MEN. I KNOW MOST OF THESE MACHINES ARE 115 OWNED BY MEN, BUT HOW ABOUT HAVING THE REST OF THE FAMILY DIAL UP THIS DEBATE 116 AND PUT IN THEIR POINT OF VEIW. AND DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU CAN SPEAK FOR 117 THEM. 118 6) ARGUMENTS ABOUT PARTICULAR ACTIVITIES AND CLASSES TO BE INCLUDED AT 119 SCHOOLS HAVE GONE ON SEEMINGLY FOREVER. WHETHER YOU TALK ABOUT ART, SPORTS, 120 OR SCIENCE, EACH FIELD WILL HAVE SUPPORTERS AND DETRACTORS. SOME PEOPLE 121 CAN MAKE A GOOD CASE FOR THE IDEA THAT A NOVEL OR AN OUTSTANDING OLYMPIC 122 ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE IS JUST AS VALUBLE A CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY AS 123 A WHOLE AS IS THE LATEST CHIP-WIDGET. ECONOMICALLY, WE ARE STILL NET 124 EXPORTERS OF ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCTS. THESE FIELDS EMPLOY MANY MORE 125 PEOPLE THAN CAN POSSIBLY EVER LEARN TO PROGRAM EEPROM'S - AND REMEMBER 126 THAT THESE FIELDS EMPLOY PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT NATIVE TALENT'S FROM THOSE 127 USEFUL IN CURRENT HIGH TECH. NO BLANKET STATEMENT ABOUT THE GENERAL EMPHASIS 128 OF EDUCATION SHOULD BE MADE WITHOUT A CAREFUL CONSIDERATION OF THE NEEDS 129 OF DIVERSITY IN SOCIETY. 130 7) ON THE OTHER HAND, AS A VETERAN OF THE SPUTNICK ERA SCIENCE EDUCATION 131 THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED WHEN WE WERE STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE RUSSIANS BEING 132 AHEAD OF US ( AND CONTEMPTUOUS OF JAPANESE PRODUCTS) I CERTAINLY AGREE 133 THAT SCIENCE EDUCATION HAS TAKEN A NOSEDIVE IN RELATION TO TWENTY YEARS 134 AGO AND ALSO IN RELATION TO SCIENCE TAUGHT IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES. 135 THIS SUPERIORITY OF OTHER NATIONS IN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION 136 IS NOT LIMITED TO SCIENCE, HOWEVER. THEY ALSO ARE AHEAD IN LITERATURE, 137 LANGUAGES, AND ART EDUCATION. WHAT COUNTRIES? WELL, JAPAN, HONG KONG, 138 AUSTRALIA, SINGAPORE, SWEDEN, GERMANY,....... SOME THINGS YOU NOTICE 139 ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES IN STYLE..... THEY HAVE MORE DRILL, MORE HOURS PER DAY 140 IN CLASS, MORE HOMEWORK, SHORTER SUMMER VACATIONS OR NONE, MORE DISCIPLINE, 141 HIGHER STANDARDS AND A GREATER VARIETY OF COURSE MATERIAL. FOR INSTANCE, 142 THEY STILL *REQUIRE* A SECOND LANGUAGE IN MOST COUNTRIES. THE NUMBER 143 OF STRATEGIES FOR THOUGHT ABOUT ANYTHING ONE THINKS ABOUT CAN BE INCREASED 144 BY HAVING A SECOND LANGUAGE. THE EXPORT-READINESS OF A NATION IS AFFECTED 145 ENORMOUSLY BY THE NUMBER OF BI-LINGUALS. (ALAS, I AM NOT ONE, THOUGH I AM 146 BELATEDLY ATTEMPTING TO BECOME SO, AN EFFORT BETTER UNDERTAKEN AT AN EARLY AGE. 147 ) 148 149 WELL, MAYBE SOMEBODY ELSE WOULD LIKE TO GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE BEFORE THE DISK 150 IS FULL SO UNTILL LATER ON ........VOLUMINOUSLY YOURS, CHUCK 151 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 152 TO THE ABOVE TWO PERSONS, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU BOTH IN THAAT THE MONEY SPENT 153 ON GYMS ETC. COULD BETTER BE SPENT ON COMPUTERS, VOCATIONAL EQUIPMENT, AND LABS. 154 CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW MANY MICROS A GYM FACILITY WOULD BUY? OR HOW ABOUT YHE NUMBE 155 OF MECHANICS TOOLS, OR WOOD WORKING MACHINES?? 156 AS TO THE TAX ISSUE, I THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT IDEA. TAKE AWAY THE DEDUCTIONS 157 FOR KIDS AND WE WOULDN'T NEED AS MANY SCHOOLS. IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT DEDUCTION 158 THERE WOULD BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE THOUGHT BEFORE ANOTHER LIFE WAS CREATED FOR 159 THE REST OF US TO SUPPORT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO IN THE LONG RUN. NEVER BEFORE 160 HAVE WE NNEED '0' POPULATION GROTH THAN RIGHT NOW. 161 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 162 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 163 TIt is sad that education is not considered a privilege. Our schools 'must' 164 165 off 166 i do not understnderstatand thiiiss thing gg + + it hasas typingg problems!!!!!! 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 ................... 175 May I break in? This empty space seems handy. One arguement for public schools 176 that is generally neglected is that the public, tax 177 supported schools have a better record than the average private school. 178 this is simply because they generally have more money, and are better designed 179 for the average student. Religious schools have the worst average at scholastic 180 things, but are meant to teach other things. However, averages mean nothing 181 when we talk about specific schools. Most public schools are aimed at the 182 average student, and I expect that none of the users of BWMS are average. 183 (I know I'm not!) Even so, about 90% of the population is close to average. 184 The schools in Europe are a poor model: better reputation, but only 1 in 10 185 can attend; Japan stresses CONFORMITY far more than you would find comfortable. 186 If we voted on each issue, we would see a lot more things in school disappear. 187 Most voters are too old to use schools, and don't want to pay for something 188 they can't use. They forget the strict inverse relation between crime and 189 education, or the similar relation for need of welfare, etc. ( Or who paid 190 for their own.) Those who worked to pay tuition may argue this, but their 191 schooling was paid for by others. Tuition is a small part of the cost usually. 192 Public schools have failed a lot of people (me, for instance) but are far 193 better than anything else I have seen. They could and should be better, but 194 means more money. Perhaps commercial companies, with competition, could do 195 better. (Bid for the jobs, get paid according to the scores of the students) 196 The cost would go down, but also I expect the results. 197 ///////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 221 08/11/83 222 The Hoodview Amateur Radio Club will hold it's first 223 Hamfair/Computer Show Aug 27 9-6, Aug 28 9-3 at MT Hood 224 Community College gym. There will be comerical displays, 225 food and swap tables (for radio and computer items only). 226 Admission is $2.00, 12 and under free. Swap tables are 227 $5.00.For more information contact Bob at 771-xxxx 228 *************************************************************** 229 To: Art 230 From: Bob 231 ------------------------------------------- 232 It amazes me that people can get on a system like this, free for all comment 233 and WASTE the space available like the 234 above 53 LINE blank area. ITS 235 APPALLING !!!!!! 236 Paul 237 ---------------------------------------------------- 238 239 240 241 242 WHYITISIZE OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD BUT IT WORKS. 243 244 245 D A CHS SOPHMORE 246 247 THIS IS A STRANGE SYSTEM 248 249 ......Paul, you forget one thing, YOU UNDERSTAND HOW BWMS WORKS!! 250 Somebody else obviously doesn't. Was your usage perfect on your first try? 251 ////////////////mine wasn't////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 252 I said arithmatic is obsolete. Someone asked what happened when my calculator 253 broke. If something wipes out all the calculators in this house at the same 254 time, including the one I wear on my wrist, I doubt that it will matter 255 whether I can add anyway. "Businesses demand it for a job." True, but not 256 for itself; a requirement to finish school is a good filter against 257 incompetants. I agree we need to know simple addition, it's easier than 258 dragging out the calculator every time we get change, but can you tell which 259 box of soap is a better buy? It's easy, and doesn't need math, the store puts 260 a little tag under each box "$.19 per oz". Damn few of us could do that fast 261 enough to be useful without a calculator, and we are the cream of the crop. 262 Spend the time on learning what the numbers mean, and how to use calculators 263 to get them. Learn how to estimate in your head, so you can tell a crazy 264 answer, but leave the exact figuring to something that does it well. 265 We live in technological society, it's pretty important we learn to use it 266 since we have to live with it. No business want you wasting time doing arith 267 so they supply calcs: time is money. You can also say that much of the rest 268 of what is taught in school is obsolete, too. They follow, not lead. 269 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 270 ************************************************************ 271 I would have to agree with BAD in large part about the calculator thing, 272 sure its nice to know you can do long division in your head, but what's 273 the point? My calculator can do it a million times faster. It is a simple 274 matter of efficiency. I am not saying that we should stop teaching math 275 (heaven forbid) but rather that we take a closer look at just what we are 276 teaching, and try to more closly adapt it to what the child will need 277 when they grow up to become a productive part of society. For the same 278 reason that we don't drive horse drawn carts around any more, we should 279 not throw the calculator away as being just a worthless new fangled gadget. 280 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ************* 12 AUG 83 ************************* 281 TO: secret admirer fm: Mikey 282 Actually, I don't like life cerial, so I thought I'd try working for money 283 for a change. (Ha Ha) 284 **************************************************************************: 285 And finnaly, to the education debaters: 286 You seem to be speaking that one specific type of education is best. 287 I.E. the schools must teach people the way I think. Please keep in mind 288 that there are many different types of people out there who come from 289 many different backgrounds. There is no one BEST way. Not only that, 290 there is an actual need to have the varyed methodes of teaching. How 291 can we have any new ideas fowing if everyone thinks the same? Obviosly 292 no one does, which makes the whole concept of mass market teaching a 293 bit rediculous. Also I might point out that some of the most famous 294 people who many think had an extensive educational background did not 295 (the degrees and such were either given to them or came at a much later 296 date). This was usually because they did not 'fit in' to the educational 297 system of thier time, so they either left volutarily, or were kicked out. 298 Not that I am saying all famous people started this way, but only that 299 a 'higher education' does not have to come from the standard school 300 system to allow a person to expand his life. 301 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 12 AUG 83 ****************************: 302 Oh yeah, I would suggest that you not confuse speech patterns, spelling, 303 and writing ability with intelligence (whatever that is). The more I 304 study about famous people, and just people I know in general, the more 305 amazed I am at how rotten thier command of the word is. Also please 306 keep in mind that books and things have gone through many levels of editing 307 before you ever see them to clean up the writing. You should see some 308 of the trash it starts out as. It is the ideas and general tone of the 309 writing that the editors are looking for (unless of course they are 310 lazy, in which case the standards go up to include perfect writing as well.) 311 ***** Ok Ok, I'll quit **** CISTOP MIKEY *****************************: 312 Mikey, I'm not saying everyone has to take computer classes. 313 I'm just saying that it would help if they were taught how to 314 "reason in a logical manner", how to use the language well enough 315 to communicate CLEARLY and UNAMBIGOUSLY, to read (and LISTEN) 316 well enough to figure out what other people may be trying to say, 317 etc. This may be asking too much, BUT it is also the MINIMUM 318 required to keep things going! 319 As for BAD's comment about calculators & unit pricing 320 I've had to compare prices on powdered lemonade & frozen lemonade 321 (as just ONE example)-- THE UNIT PRICES DIDN'T USE THE SAME UNITS! 322 I had to figure it myself, and I pity anyone who tries it 323 without a fair amount of math background. I also pity anyone 324 who tries it with a calculator. I use an "obsolete" device- 325 a SLIDE RULE (anybody remember them?). MUCH easier! By the 326 way, anyone know where I can buy a circular slide rule (preferably 327 NOT plastic!)? 328 In any case, there are some minimums that I feel could 329 be agreed on for most subjects. I agree that we don't need to spend 330 as much time on math (in the lower grades) as is now spent. But 331 I still think that we should teach most of what is taught now. 332 You CAN'T get a proper estimate of what the right answer to a 333 division problem is (for example) unless you know SOME form of 334 division. If we start allowing calculators in the classroom, 335 I suspect that the "best" course might be to ignore story problems 336 and the like until AFTER the kids get to the stage where we are 337 letting them use calculators in class, say third grade? Besides, 338 I haven't seen too many first graders who could hit the keys very 339 well! Just get the BASIC addition, subtraction, multiplication & 340 division out of the way and save everything else for later. Once 341 342 the kid can do SIMPLE problems on his own I see no reason NOT to 343 let him (hell, ENCOURAGE him!) to use a calculator. (by simple, 344 I mean things like 237+185, 375-289, 327*23, 147/63). Fractions, 345 decimals, etc can come later (I'm not sure about when we should 346 hit them with negative numbers though!) 347 If I'd had a calculator, I would have done much better 348 in my math classes in 4th grade & up. Before then, I wouldn't have 349 learned anything except button pushing! (for what it is worth, a 350 friend says this is similar to what he has done with his kid) 351 Okay, now I've made some suggestions on minimum "education" 352 and some specific suggestions on math. Would anyone else care 353 to make some suggestions? (Note: I would prefer counter-suggestions 354 rather than direct criticism of MY suggestions. In other words- 355 don't criticize unless you can offer an ALTERNATIVE suggestion) 356 ___________________________Leonard___________________________ 357 TO LEONARD: YOUR PROPOSALS ON MATH EDUCATION ARE ALL WET. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY 358 CALCULATORS, COMPUTERS ETC YOU HAVE YOU CAN'T USE THEM WITHOUT AAN EDUCATION IN 359 MATH. I KNOW FROM FIRST HAND. SURE I CAN BANG AWAY ON A KEYBOARD AND TALK TO YOU 360 BUT WHEN IT COMES TO UNDERSTANDING ALGORYTHMS, STRINGS, AND SUBSETS ETC. I'M M 361 LOST BECAUSE I DIDN'T BOTHER TO LEARN MY CALCULUS, ALGEBRA, OR SCIENTIFIC NO 362 NOTATIONS WHILE I WAS IN SCHOOL. ONLY ENOUGH TO MAKE IT PAST THE NEXT TEST. ONLY 363 IF I'D KNOWN THEN HOW IMPORTANT THASE THINGS WOULD BE TODAY. OF COURSE BACK THEN 364 WHO NNNEEDED ALL THAT GARBAGE TO BE AN AUTO MECHANIC, OR A TV REPAIRMAN. 365 WE DEFINATELY NEED MATH IN THE SCHOOLS AND LOTS MORE OF IT, STARTING AS YOUNG AS 366 POSSIBLE, GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH LIFE. THE SAME GOES FOR LANGUAGES, BOTH N 367 NATIVE AND FOREIGN. I WAS LUCKY IN THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN LANGUAGE AND HAD T 368 TEACHERS THAT MADE IT INTERESTING FOR ME ENOUGH THAT TO THIS DAY I ENJOY BOTH 369 THE SPOKEN AND WRITTEN WORD. PITY THAT MY MATH TEACHERS DID NOT INSTILL THAT S 370 SAME FASCINATION IN N ME FOR NUMBERS. IF THE ACADEMIC TUTORS WOULD SHOW JUST 1/2 371 THE ENTHUSIASM FOR THEUEIR SUBJECTS THAT THE COACHES DO WITH THE TEAMS WE COULD 372 HAVE THE BEST EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IN THE UNIVERSE. 373 =====SO MUCH FROM THE OVER 50'S AGE GROUP 374 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 375 yea...so much for the over 50's age group. Just because you were foolish 376 enough not to take an interest in math when you were younger doesn't mean 377 Leonard's ideas are all wet! So you think you got screwed in math because 378 you 'only studied enough to get through the next test'. What bull, the blame 379 for your present condition rests on YOUR shoulders. The old cliche, 'you can 380 lead a kid to school, but you can't make him learn' is damned true! And like 381 leonard said, stop cutting down his proposals with insult, if you think you 382 have a better idea, let's here it. But let's not start criticizing everything 383 right and left! 384 385 386 387 ======================================== 388 389 Then possibly it is the students fault for the condition of our educational 390 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 391 Lines 242-245 provide ELOQUENT evidence of today's public schooling, don't they! 392 Let's inject a bit more formality of evidence, may we? Please document 393 claims of studies, results, polls, counts, etc. so that other readers may 394 evaluate the sources of same for validity and for degree of applicability 395 to discussion at hand. 396 Elberich: I'm not rich monetarily: never have I earned more that $40,000 397 in any tax year; I AM my own one-man company; I am single, never married, 398 prepared to support my one remaining parent as he lives out his life (in 399 the same way he supported me as I grew); if I have some financial stability 400 , it's because I studied HOW to spend and HOW to save to suit my life plan. 401 I am concerned that the public school students may well be learning not 402 only how to survive without having to try (Where does the line form to get 403 my share...gimme, gimme), but simply not acquiring basic factual data 404 about life and how to use those facts as building blocks for personal 405 planning and decision making (instead of "Wow, man, like no hassle...if 406 it feels good, do it at least twice..."). If I felt I AND SOCIETY were 407 getting our money's worth of educational instruction, I wouldn't seek 408 an unsettling alternative to the present system. 409 Chuck: Before you suggest that students know more of the system that we 410 who have nearly reached middle age, please consider that we have been thru 411 the ENTIRE system, we have had a chance to evaluate our post-schooling 412 years in terms of our educational preparedness (as did Leonard), and we 413 have had more broad life experiences upon which to thoughfully build a 414 viewpoint. Speaking of aged things, shouldn't we who saw Sputnik and felt 415 the space-race intensify also lbe guided by some of that "high-tech" era's 416 sore spots ( which may be called failings by some): New Math has been 417 widely abandoned by public schools; today's teachers face the proficiency- 418 testing approach to evaluating their performance because they, earlier, or 419 the teachers before them allowed illiterate graduates; people here argue 420 that attention to the details of language, humanities, arts means little 421 when all around them the costs of being alive are ballooning because of 422 the actions of thoughtless, untrained, undisciplined fellow-citizens, 423 whether in the scope of their jobs or during their leisure time. 424 When I see people here speaking of fear of high-tech and calling for 425 souped-up teaching, I feel compelled to offer that-- 426 The mind that is full of facts, has learned to observe and evaluate 427 causal relationships, disciplines its attached body for its own sanctity 428 and for fairness to others, has developed confidence in its imagination 429 and its perceptions, and can anticipate the near-future because of all 430 these things is the well-trained, self-satisfying, socially concious, 431 enduring intelligence to be envied. 432 The public school CAN help produce this trained mind, and the exercised 433 body for it, if that is truly desired by those within the system. What 434 manner of jolt to attract the attention of those who comprise the system 435 may be determined financially or politically, but rationally, I hope. 436 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 437 WOULG SOMEONE PLEASE TRANSLATE THE ABOVE VERBOSITY INTO SIMPLE ENGLISH. 438 ////////////////////////////////////////// 439 ---------------------------------------------- 440 Anyone care to discuss something else? I am having a hard time connecting to this discussion anymore ... I guess mainly 441 because I've been out if school for a long time, I don't pay property taxes, and I don't have any childern ... 442 You folks can continue if you wish but I'd like to discuss another topic if anyone would care to. 443 444 Paul 445 446 ------------------------------------------------ 447 Sorry, Paul, this does affect you. Property taxes aren't nearly the only cost 448 of education. I get your point, though. Care to suggest one?? 449 To whomever needs a translation of Daves's speech: without an education, you 450 can't think, if you can't think you can't survive in our world on your own, 451 and this means we need schools. Somehow it seemed to me to be in proper 452 American English. 453 454 Does anybody out there know of a good photo club? As my schedule changes, 455 I may have time for one. What pix I have seen in several shows differ too 456 much from what I'm doing, and I would like to know why. 457 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 458 ------- 459 ------- 460 What is 461 462 ------- 463 ---------------------------------------- 464 Wow! That was weird, 465 apparently set the margin at 10, I 466 couldn't get passed the tenth column. 467 Anyway ... BAD, I originally started the AI discussion, so at the 468 moment I'Mm a little gun shy as far as 469 techno-topics is concerned. 470 I see that you shoot; I've done a little of that also over the 471 last couple of years ... what do you 472 like as subjects for your 'graghs? 473 474 Paul 475 476 ----------------------------------------------- 477 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 478 479 My, my, things sure move fast on this system as of late. Away for 1 day, and we've covered over 400 lines! Whew!!!! 480 Paul, I wouldn't worry about tech topics. I enjoyed the discussion immensely, and the only reason the conversation 481 moved away from AI was that we seemed to have reached a point where we had covered a lot of ground, and arrived at a 482 place where we weren't going any further. Re: the response to my last comments (or my last diatribe, depending on 483 your point of view), I have no objections to the points raised in the last comment on the previous disk, but I think 484 that what I said applied perfectly to the remarks starting at line 25 (to which it was directed). His basic idea was 485 that (I quote) "the burden of education should be borne by those in public schools." It was also stated that, as his 486 children attented private schools, he deserved a tax break. I feel that if anyone can afford private schools, they 487 can afford the taxes. The burden of public schools belongs on all of us, and on each of us according to our ability 488 to pay. Do our schools need changing? Yes, very much so! Voting on tax-base measure split between classes and 489 extra-curricular activities? Sounds good. But tax breaks for private schools? I just can't go along with it. 490 Back to Paul. I can understand your increasing lack of interest. This discussion is now suffering from the 491 same problem the AI one had, that is, its getting stale. I have no fear of tech subjects, and I always enjoy your 492 remarks. So the ball is in your court ( uh....excuse the cliche ). Oh, by the way, even if you rent, you pay 493 property taxes. They're just hidden within your rent. The property owner is a businessman, and isn't going to just 494 eat the cost of the tax. The same applies to all businesses that own property. We pay the taxes eventually. 495 Everyone: Keep the controversy going!!! Its great to see!! 496 /Elberich\ 497 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 498 -------------------------------------------- 499 Elberich: 500 Yes, you are absolutely correct, I hadn't considered it before 501 but I see it as being very true about the cost being passed on ... 502 "If you don't see it, it doesn't happen 503 " seems to apply. 504 Care to discuss the ethics envolved in genetic engineering? 505 506 Paul 507 508 ------------------------------------------------ 509 Unfortunately, elberich, you've made at least two assumptions that you have passed off as facts. "The burden of public 510 schools belongs on all of us, and on us according to our ability to pay" (a 511 loose quote.) 512 First assumption: The burden of public schools belongs on all of us. 513 This assumes that the majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate 514 in a venture of the majority. In effect, theft is being advocated here. Theft, 515 from those who wish to have a private education, to those who for some reason get 516 a public education. Can you justify this theft? Would you try? I think you 517 won't even admit it is theft. 518 Second assumption: "...on us according to our ability to pay." 519 Unfortunately, the pro-tax people gradually tend to believe that the "progressive" 520 tax system is the natural way of things, and to do otherwise is unnatural. 521 Indeed, they have already convinced themselves that to steal money from others is 522 ok as long as you call it 'taxes.' 523 I doubt that you will want to get into a serious discussion of the moral 524 aspects of taxes, since most people of your beliefs get very nervous when their 525 underlying assumptions are questioned. What, EXACTLY, justifies one person 526 taking money from another? I dare you to try to answer. Don't try to say 527 that "Congress says so" or "we voted for it" or "The Supreme Court says it's 528 ok, since Congress interned the Japanese during WW2, the Supreme court 529 affirmed it (and the Dred Scott decision, etc), and almost no tax issues 530 are ever nationally decided anymore. 531 Let's hear some response. And remember, the burden of proof is on 532 you, since you are the one who wants to tax me, not the other way around. 533 (Oh yes, I went to a PUBLIC SCHOOL) 534 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 535 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^To "::::::::" 536 You're quite correct. There is no justification in this world other than self interest (which seems to be what 537 you're saying). We all must do exactly what most benefits us. And of course, very few tax issues are decided by 538 vote (I even said that earlier). We only get to vote on those taxes that our government feels we probably won't turn 539 down. And, as you said, "my kind" (whatever THAT means; human perhaps) doesn't seem to mind money going to help 540 those who can't help themselves. You seem to be "the type" that would call me a "knee-jerk liberal", assuming that 541 such sloganeering proved something. 542 So, friend "::::::", let me put it in terms you can understand (self-interest, that is). A society that won't 543 provide for the education of ALL of its people will find itself in a situation of increasing class distinction. 544 An elite, educated class, and and uneducated lower class. The results of this are obvious in countries that have 545 taken this route. Examine most of South America. The lower class usually reaches a point where they can no longer 546 tolerate the inequities, and something breaks. Personally, I dispise communism, but it seems to be an easy answer 547 for desperate people. So, from the point of self-interest, it is in our benefit to continue to have an upwardly 548 mobile society (which can only be brought about by the opportunity for education) in order for us to maintain our 549 nice, comfy places. That is, or course, assuming you don't like revolutions. 550 "The majority should be able to force the minority to cooperate in a venture of the majority." A better 551 definition of Democracy one could not ask for. Are you telling me that you are against Democracy? What other 552 options do we have? Would prefer communism? Or a monarchy? How about anarchy? I'm certainly not going to defend 553 taxes. They are theft, indeed. What else could they be? But its a theft I will live with, and you probably will 554 too. How else can we continue to support our society? Or pay for more toys for our Generals? If you can agree that 555 ANY of the uses that our taxes are put to are worthy, then you can't argue against the very concept of taxes. I'm 556 sure that you don't mind police protection, or nice roads for your car, or any of the benefits those of us with money 557 get from our taxes. How can you deny someone that can't afford private schools an education? 558 On a lighter note (?), I think you have got a good subject there, Paul. What are the ethics here? Does the 559 geneticist have a duty to society? I think that, before a new strain of bacteria or virus is brought into the world, 560 the ramifications should be studied to death, and then studied again. But we can't object to a new type of corn (for 561 example) that will grow in the most infertile soil, or that has the ability to fix Nitrogen to help prevent soil 562 depletion. What would we tell a hungry world? That we found the idea offensive? What would the moral action be? 563 Good job, Paul!! Looks like we've got a new subject with potential! 564 /Elberich\ 565 566 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 567 568 ON AN EVEN LIGHTER NOTE..... 569 WHY DID BEETHOVEN SELL ALL OF HIS CHICKENS? 570 BECAUSE ALL THEY WOULD SAY WAS "BACH....BACH.....BACH....BACH". 571 572 ...................................... 573 ================================================================================ 574 575 576 HOW DO WE ALL FEEL ABOUT GOVT INTERVENTION IN EDUCATION....................... 577 578 579 READ PG A-12 SAT OREGONIAN UPPER LEFT HAND CORNER...... 580 581 ARRESTING STUDENTS FOR THE COURSES THEY TAKE & THE COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM...... 582 583 ANY OPINIONS ? 584 585 ================================================================================ 586 587 588 589 For another veiwpoint about taxes; look at a smaller economic unit - the 590 family. Many of the same economic dynamics apply in the family unit as 591 the larger state or national unit. 592 It could easily be argued that the financial support of the family is 593 parrallel to the tax situation, the only difference is that you know the 594 people the money is going to! 595 ======================================================================== 596 For the person who had the guall to change my message on the 597 previous disk, KEEP YOUR DAMN HANDS OFF THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!!! 598 599 TRON 600 ================================================================================ 601 602 HEY FOLKS ..... THEY ARE ARRESTING STUDENTS BECAUSE OF THEIR NATIONALITY... 603 604 IS THAT FAIR IN OUR DEMOCRACY.... 605 606 WHAT HAPPENED TO " I MAY NOT AGREE WITH YOUR IDEAS BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEM " ? 607 608 WHATS NEXT..... 609 610 SUBVERSIVE PROGRAMS ?.... PERHAPS THEIR AUTHORS...... 611 612 I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT EVEN THE SMALLEST INFRINGEMENT ON AN INDIVIDUALS 613 ABILITY TO STUDY WHAT THEY WISH AS THEY WISH HAS TO BE VIOLATION OF THEIR CIVIL 614 RIGHTS....... 615 616 THEY DIDNT ARREST THE HARVARD STUDENT WHOS TERM PAPER GAVE A STEP BY STEP GUIDE TO MAKING YOUR OWN A-BOMB 617 618 THEY GAVE HIM AN "A"........ 619 620 ( ALTHOUGH THEY DID CLASSIFY THE PAPER ) 621 622 I PITY HIM NOW IF HE HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO BE A NATIONAL OF A UN-FRIENDLY 623 COUNTRY . 624 625 626 ================================================================================ 627 Some thoughts... 628 I don't care what you teach the kids, if you will also teach them Logic... 629 RATS! OUT OF SPACE! And I was just warming up.... the Phantom Glitch 8/13/83 @ 13:30, see you next disk..