Sex and The Law (12,:: Will ::) Ladies and gentlemen and children of all ages it gives me great pleasure to introduce Sir Edward!!!... who will tonight be discussing D&S and the Law. (12,Sir Edward) 'lo (smiling modestly) (12,:: Will ::) Would you please tell everyone a little about yourself? (12,Sir Edward) Thank you, my good friend Will. (12,Sir Edward) This maybe reptitious to some of y Former Attorney General of Alaska. Superior Court Judge pro tem. Trial Lawer extraordinaire... Journalist, columnist - dom and Master of the spendid Kay #1... er, splendid! (Freudian typo there) Let the fun and frolic start, Will? (12,:: Will ::) By all means! Unless anyone has a question or comment to start us off, I'll ask a question. No? Alright. I'd like to know if you're aware of any cases in which anyone was prosecuted for practicing d&S. (12,Sir Edward) Well first, let us see if we can all agree on a definition of D & S. May I call on Chiun to offer one, Will? ok? Thanks. (12,:: Will ::) By all means. Chiun? (12,Chiun) No. (grin) (12,Sir Edward) Okay - How about Ms.*A*? (12,Chiun) Actually, I'd narrow your question to ask about "practicing" vs. "Practicing for MONEY" There are LOTS of the latter, but few of the former cases. (12,:: Will ::) go ahead, Angelique (12, :: Angelique ::) To offer a definition of d & s or dominance and submission, also known to some as bondage and discipline or sadomasochism --it comprises various activities, primarily, though not exclusively, sexual involving a power exchange between partners where one exercises sexual control and the other submits to the dominant's will. Many, if not most, of these activities fall outside the range of what most laws consider normal sexual practice. Does that suffice? (12,:: Will ::) Edward? (12,Sir Edward) I think that is excellent and I will accept it although we could spend the better part of the night quibbling over semantics. Just one slight dissent here: I do not consider D&S = B&D = S&M. In my book, consensual power transfer is synonymous with D & S. Bondage and Discipline are activities resorted to by the partners to D&S. S & M includes B&D but also other pain/pleasure activities. (12,Shiva) ? (12,:: Will ::) Yes, Shiva? (12,Shiva) Edward -- Is that a personal belief or a legal distinction ? (12,Chiun) !? (12,Sir Edward) My personal understanding - no legal definitions exist (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question and a comment? (12,Chiun) Yup. Since in practice if not in actual law the CONSENT is the issue (by which I mean that there ARE ancient blue laws against various sexual practices, but they're not enforced), how does the law DEAL with the issue of PROVING consent, as in cases of "after the fact" claims of rape/assault etc. etc. And does it ever come up in divorce cases, for example? (12,:: Will ::) Good questions, Chiun...Edward? Edward, did you get Chiun's question? (12,Sir Edward) Sorry I was dumped! Something about how do you prove consent after the fact? (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, would you mind repeating the whole? (12,Chiun) Okay. I'll give a hypothetical to express it differently: You, Her, Moonlit Night....fun, games, a bit of bubbly, a bit of bondage, a bit of sex and spanking... And two weeks later when you tell her its over, she runs to the police with her still-red welts and cries rape/torture/ assault, whatever. What the HELL do you do? And how does the automatic Bias of police/courts against "sickos" like you/us work against you? (12,Sir Edward) Okay. Need more facts. Had you just met her? If so, you are a fool to give her red welts that last two weeks, without a written consent. If you had an ongoing relationship, but no slave contract, you can prove consent by circumstantial evidence -old photos, letters, testimony of mutual friends. (12,:: Will ::) Edward, would you advise getting written consent before indulging? (12,Sir Edward) If you are going to beat the h*** out of her .. you'd better! If you are just going to give her a good spanking and turn her pretty little a*s shocking pink - probably no problem. (12,:: Will ::) Hmmmm! Lisle, you had a comment? (12,Shiva) ? (12,Lisle) Case in DC involving a man who did much as Chiun described--she ran out of the apt stark naked. (12,Sir Edward) And? (12,Lisle) Showed her welts to the neighors, got photos, and went to court. She won the assault case even though the guy argued consent. (12,Sir Edward) You're in trouble, friend. Pick your subs more carefully. (12,Lisle) Not I. (12,Sir Edward) I know. Only kidding! (12,Lisle) I always get written consent (12,Sir Edward) Written consent is fine - but not foolproof. She can always say THAT was coerced. (12,CHIUN) !!!!!? (12,Lisle) Not the way I do it (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, you had a question? (12,CHIUN) Yup. Come on now gang...let's get serious. How many people here have EVER found it romantic, enjoyable, or even POSSIBlE to say, just before beginning to play, "Oh, by the way, would you sign this consent form, dear?" In the REAL world, this does NOT happen...but being accused falsely does. (12,Sir Edward) Of course not. But then I don't whip a girl on our first date, either. (12,:: Will ::) Excuse me: would everyone please end their comments with GA (for Go Ahead) so that we don't have overlap? Thanks. Shiva, you had a question? (12,Shiva) Since the areas we are discussing deal with power, how do you prove consent? Even with writing you can say it was while coereced or under duress by the nature of the activity. GA (12,Sir Edward) Shiva, that's the very point I made. There is no foolproof legal protection. You pick your partner carefully; you respect limits and you do the best you can with building your case if the relationship gets out of hand. GA (12,Shiva) !? (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, I see you're next... what was your question? GA (12,Lisle) My understanding of the law on assault and battery is that consent is not needed if the authorities want to press the case. Is that true? GA (12,Sir Edward) Consent IS a defense, whether the sub prosecutes a civil claim or the State prosecutes. GA (12,:: Will ::) Angelique, your question? GA (12, :: Angelique ::) Edward, I was wondering if you're familiar with any of the cases that have come up in the recent past. For example, Marquise Marie was busted for practicing d&s at home and a number of clubs/bulletin boards/porno producers have been busted. Do you know whether there's been more of a trend towards harrassing d&s. And if so, why? ga (12,DAN) ! (12,Sir Edward) Well, they have always hassled commercial establishments and Chiun is right - cops hate s&m - because so many of them are overtly or subconsciously sadistic. ga (12,Lisle) ! (12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question and comment? GA (12,Shiva) I agree with choosing your partners wisely. Then are we to understand that what the law prosecutes is not D/s but rather assault, battery, mental duress etc etc. GA (12,Sir Edward) Correct, Shiva. There is no specific law that I know of that proscribes any d&s activities only assault, prostitution, lewd and lascivious conduct etc. ga (12,:: Will ::) Chiun, I have you down for five comments and a question...go ahead. GA (12,Chiun) Okay....now then: Marquise Marie was busted on Prostitution. She was abused, yes, and her home wrecked, and the charge may or may not stick, but prostitution, NOT d/s, was the charge. NO porn producer has EVER been busted for d/s. NEVER. Busts have been for "obscenity", and, more recently, for using underage folks. To my knowledge (and it's amazingly extensive), the ONLY kind of charge vs. folks for doing anything having to do with d/s has been assault/daterape/etc, and even THEN, its NOT "Malicious D/S", its another legal charge. Therefore: My questions have not to do with the "letter' of law, since it doesn't exist where we're concerned, thank goodness. They have to do with prejudice/abuse/agressive prosecution of us BECAUSE of we do what we do, and because judges/ da's/police think its particularly "sick". How do we protect ourselves, Ed? (I think that must be 5 comments and a question) (grin) GA (12,Sir Edward) No.1 - Professional doms and producers of substantial amounts of porn are at the highest risk. Private practitioners of D/s in stable relationships have really nothing to worry about. As far as protecting pros - that's a long story. I have advised many. Written consents. Signed statements "I am not a law enforcement officer etc., audiotape recordings of sessions, etc. ga (12,:: Will ::) Dan, I believe you're next. GA (12,Joel & Allysse) ? (12,DAN) JUST A COUPLE COMMENTS--Marquise Marie was busted because she was dumb enough to have a written price list that included explicit sex acts in addition to d and s and the convictions of the porn producers for pandering have been reversed...paying people to have sex in a movie is not necessarily being a pimp ga (12,:: Will ::) Joel and Allysse? (12,Joel & Allysse) Recently I read of a case in CA of a sub who reported to the emergency ward for help with some deep bruises. This resulted in police intervention despite her telling the officers it was part of a voluntary act. Is this standard? Any ideas of how we can seek MD help without prosecution if needed ? GA (12,Sir Edward) Yes, the police will probably intervene in such cases and probably should. Personally, I am opposed to such severe activities, but I realize that some folks crave this kind of extreme treatment. The only way to avoid police intervention in such a case would be a sympathetic physician. ga (12,:: Will ::) Shiva, you had a question? GA (12,Shiva) In some therapy sessions D/s has arisen as a topic: is the encouragment of that legal ? ga (12,Sir Edward) Since D/s is not illegal, "encouraging" it is not illegal either. Besides there is patient/therapist confidentiality. Please understand again, none of these activities between private, consenting adults are illegal or can get you in trouble - unless someone turns on you later. And there are ways to guard against that. We must also understand that D/s like many other legitimate activities has its darker side. E.g. the Steinberg case in NY. GA (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, you had a comment? GA (12,Lisle) Yes. I have been told that the state of NC prohibits any S&M activity between consenting adults and the state of Virginia prohibits any form of bondage, so too MD and DC. Are you aware of those laws. GA (12,Sir Edward) No, I am not aware of the laws in some of these more benighted jurisdictions. But it really makes no difference - if they can catch you, they can always fashion some charge. The point is what you do in your private bedroom usually does not come to the attention of the police or da - unless they are out to get you for political reasons. ga (12,:: Will ::) Angelique? GA (12, :: Angelique ::) Two questions. First: Edward, at least once or twice a year I hear a rumor that the FCC or some other agency is monitoring computer networks such as CIS for pornography and that the Feds are anxious to make a test case. Is there any truth to such rumors or are they merely paranoia...and if true, should the Feds crack down what laws would apply that might make us vulnerable? ga (12,Sir Edward) As to whether it is happening... your guess is as good as mine. It would not surprise me, however, in the present climate. (12,Lisle) ! (12,Sir Edward) As to what they can do - that is really a question for an FCC specialist - which I am not. (12,Lisle) May I take that one on? (12,Sir Edward) My guess is they probably could, particularly if telephone lines, satellites or broadcast facilities are used. Also, it would only take one turncoat or undercover subscriber to cause trouble. ga (12, :: Angelique ::) I'd like to know what Lisle knows. (12,:: Will ::) Lisle, Angelique is deferring her question in favor of your comment. Please go ahead. GA (12,Lisle) mail has the protection of or rather equal to US mail and cannot be monitored or intercepted and used as evidence except in the case of national security. Thus as long as the message originates within the states and stays within the states no federal agency may monitor a board or open communications such as the messages . To date the only thing the feds are concerned about is anything which might portray acts involving underage people. As to this kind of interactive communications that we are engaged in now the technical capability of even the federal govt could not handle all the data that is flying thru the air right now .... It is impossible! ga (12,:: Will ::) Please go ahead, Edward... and Angelique, ask your second question when he has finished, please. GA (12,Sir Edward) Thank you, Lisle. That was clear and concise. I might add that nothing we say here to night could expose anyone to risk of any kind, even if they could monitor. ga (12, :: Angelique ::) Ok: question #2, then....Edward, as a writer I enjoy writing erotica but worry about whether, in trying to sell it (either to mags or via the mails) I might not be exposing myself to legal risk. I've heard that postal clerks periodically answer ads in d&s magazines and then bust those that use the mails for distribution of pornographic materials. Shall I assume therefore that such a venue is legally risky for me? ga (12,Frank) ? (12,Sir Edward) That's a very gray area. I would think your MSs are safe, even if they sizzle (may I read one sometime? Just LEGAL interest/grin)... on the other hand a publisher might incur greater risk IF the material is adjudged "obscene." My own experience as an attorney for a publisher and producer of B&D mags and videos - the feds dont bother with you if you are not too big, stay away from youngsters or animals, and don't show too much by way of genitalia or genital contact ga (12,:: Will ::) Frank, you had a question? GA (12,Frank) In the example Angelique described, if the magazine was not distributed by mail in the first place would it not be a form of entrapment? ga (12,Sir Edward) No. Entrapment only works as a defense if the idea of the "crime" was planted or originated by the law enforcement officers. Where you have a commercial operation to begin with the law of entapment would not apply - assuming there was a crime committed. ga (12,:: Will ::) Lisle? GA (12, Lisle) On entrapment...I heard of a case in Florida where the respondent answered an ad for a video and was sent by federal agents a video which was known by the federal agents to be kiddie porn ...in that the actresses were underage .... is that entrapment? His lawyer was M. Belli by the way and he lost the case. ga (12,Sir Edward) Entrapment of whom? And for what crime? ga (12,Lisle) The defendant for possession of kiddie porn--it was not advertised as kiddie porn however. GA (12,Sir Edward) I never thought Mel was a great criminal defense lawyer ga (12,Lisle) (12,Sir Edward) What kind of video did the fellow send for? If he asked for kiddie porn and got kiddie porn it was not entrapment - even if the agents sent a substitute tape. ga (12,Lisle) He did not ask for kiddie porn ga (12,:: Will ::) People, our time is up. I want to thank Sir Edward for a very informative and fascinating CO and all those who had such excellent questions and comments. (12,Joel & Allysse) Thanks SE (12,:: Will ::) The formal rules are off... CO has officially ended. (12,Shiva) Thank you Edward, Will. (12,Sir Edward) Hey, I love to play with this splendid group! Love and kisses! (12,Lisle) Thanks Edward (12, :: Angelique ::) Deepest thanks, Edward! (12,Sir Edward) Welcome!!! (12,Stoney) My compliments, SE (12,Joel & Allysse) <=== Can I kiss Ally now ??? (12,:: Will ::) Kiss away, Joel! (Grin) (12,Joel & Allysse) Folks, I am off to find new legal frontiers in the D/s battle...SE, should I set up a contigency fee ??